The Homemade Heat Pump Manifesto - Page 21

Xringer · 11-19-09, 08:42 PM

* The very idea! *

It's an idea that's going around.. Here is a forum called DIY and they don't want
anyone asking certain AC or Heatpump related DIY questions..

Charging your a/c. - DoItYourself.com Community Forums

I guess they want us non-union members to call in an Expert when
it's a job they charge a lot for..

AC_Hacker · 11-20-09, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer

Here is a forum called DIY and they don't want anyone asking certain AC or Heatpump related DIY questions..

If the USA was founded by people so stunted, just imagine how dismal this country would be.

-AC_Hacker

*******

AC_Hacker · 11-21-09, 03:45 PM

This post will cover the final dis-assembly of the AC unit, and the careful salvaging of parts for the new unit that we will build...

So after extraction, we can now safely cut away the pieces we will not need and carefully remove and set safely aside the parts we will need.

Here is a picture of what's left of my unit after extraction...

You can see the condenser on the left side and the evaporator on the right side. I'm not going to use them on this project, but they are in pretty good shape, and may come in handy for other projects in the future, So when I remove them I will be very careful to avoid bending the fins.

But we will carefully remove and re-use the capillary tube, as it is sized to work with the refrigerant & compressor, and re-using this aprt makes our job drastically easier. Cap tubes and metering devvices, and work by virtue of the fact that their diameter is of a precise size and their length is of a precise length to provide an exactly calculated amount of resistance to the flow of the refrigerant in the circuit. So we don't want to do anything that would change the length or diameter of the cap tube.

So when I choose where to make my cuts on the tubing, I will prioritize salvaging the cap tube over salvaging the evaporator & condenser parts. If I can salvage everything, better yet.

Here is a photo of the first cut to remove the cap tube. I had to pull the copper tube out away from the evaporator core a small amount to allow me to position and turn the little tube cutter. I left enough of the 1/4 inch tubing so that I will be able to re-braze the cap tube into the new circuit, and not have to change the length of the cap tube.

I have made a red mark on the photo to indicate another good place where the cut could have been made...

Here is the second cut to remove the cap tube. Space and choices were both very limited here.

Not much more to say here, except work very carefully.

Please note that cap tube is not made from soft copper like the rest of the tubing is, and it will not bend easily like soft copper.

So here's our prize, the part we have been so careful to remove...

...probably a good idea to put the cap tube in a plastic bag to keep any dust & bugs out.

So after more cutting, here's what's left:

Pix - a shows the compressor, and the condenser core and the evaporator core.

Pix - b shows the compressor mounting area on the bottom pan. You may choose to use the bottom pan as is, or you may choose to create a new bottom pan from scratch, or you may choose to cut the compressor mounting section off of the old bottom pan and use it on the new one.

Pix - c shows the vibration mounts from the AC unit. There is actually a fair amount of engineering that went into these mounts, so best to save and re-use them no matter how you want to deal with the bottom pan on your new unit.

So we now have our unit fully dis-assembled and are ready to begin thinking about how we can re-assemble it into a vapor compression device that will do useful and efficient work for us.

Best Regards,

-AC_Hacker

Xringer · 11-21-09, 06:11 PM

Please note that cap tube is not made from soft copper like the rest of the tubing is, and it will not bend easily like soft copper.

Wow.. That's good to know. I had figured (based on looks) that the cap tube was going
to be very bendable stuff.. Allowing me to reposition a coil easily..

But, since it has to hold a tight ID tolerance, I can see why it would be made from a harder alloy..
And it helps keep out the kinks.

What's the idea behind a dual cap tube setup??

~~~

Do they ever die??

I can't believe how long this stuff keeps working. In late August of 1968,
my wife and I picked up a "Quiet Cool" window AC.
Last summer, I checked it. Still working! Put it out in the garage, under a cover.

In the summer of 1973, I found a 'blem' 18,000 BTU Chrysler Air Temp
at a local strip mall. $200 and it was in the trunk of my LeMans..
In the spring of 2007, my wife fired it up, forgetting to remove the snow cover..
After that, the old power hog didn't work so well.

Luckily, I had picked up a used Kenmore 18,000 at a yard sale the summer before(for $200).
Not so much power needed per BTU..
Now it had become a backup.. In case the Sanyo fails this summer..
But if the Sanyo is solid all summer, I am thinking of selling the Kenmore and patching up that big hole in the wall..

AC_Hacker · 11-21-09, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer

Please note that cap tube is not made from soft copper like the rest of the tubing is, and it will not bend easily like soft copper.

Wow.. That's good to know. I had figured (based on looks) that the cap tube was going to be very bendable stuff.. Allowing me to reposition a coil easily..

Well, the cap tube will bend but not so easily.

Just to give you an idea, I was thinking about sizing my own cap tube (there are tables for doing such a thing) and I asked a refrig. man if it was necessary to de-burr a cut cap tube, and he told me that everybody he knows just makes a file 'nick' (which I took to mean a very small groove) in the tube where they want a cut, and they bend the tubing a bit, and it will snap off without a burr. Just imagine how soft copper would behave if you made a small nick in the tube and bent it slightly? Different stuff.

I have bent cap tubing a little bit, to make it fit up, but I was very careful and aware of the limitations when I was doing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer

What's the idea behind a dual cap tube setup??

I've even seen photos of a quad tube setup. I think there is a limit to how much HVAC energy can be effectively handled using a single cap tube. That's why the multi-tube setups.

The advantages of using cap tubes is that they work, are extremely reliable and they are cheap. There's another kind of metering device called the Thermal expansion valve or TXV or TX valve.

They have the advantage of being adjustable, so you can dial in exactly the amount of refrigerant that will pass through. They also have the advantage of having a feedback loop built in so they can keep the behavior of the device constant under varying conditions.

I haven't used a TXP yet, but I bought on off of ebay for about $14. It's a Danfoss. Turns out that it uses various inserts to give it different ranges of refrigeration capacity. The insert alone cost me more than the valve. I'm keeping it in my kit box to experiment with. I priced one of them at the local HVAC supply shops and it was around $100. Ebay good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer

In the summer of 1973, I found a 'blem' 18,000 BTU Chrysler Air Temp
at a local strip mall. $200 and it was in the trunk of my LeMans..
In the spring of 2007, my wife fired it up, forgetting to remove the snow cover..
After that, the old power hog didn't work so well.

I don't know if you have discarded this unit yet, but if you still have it and plan to do some HVAC experimenting, the compressor is probably fried. However the refrigerant could possibly still be good, as well as the condenser & evaporator cores.

Also your Kenmore 18,000 (Ton & a half) would be great to experiment with. However, even though it's a bit on the large side, the Freon is useful (you probably have 1.5 to 2 pounds in there) and the condenser and evaporator cores might be interesting to pair with a smaller compressor, like maybe 400 to 600 watts.

Also, if you're thinking about doing any kind of Ground Source heating or cooling experiments, if the rule of thumb that works for Western Oregon were to work for Mass, 18,000 BTU's would call for 300 feet of borehole or something like 200 feet of trench. That's a lot of earth moving. But a 600 watt unit would only need half as much digging and a 400 watt would need a third. Of course the amount of heat that they'd move is smaller by the same fraction.

Best Regards,

-AC_Hacker

%%%%%%%

dremd · 11-21-09, 10:06 PM

Still Awesome.
You have some big balls brazing on propane filled copper.
I don't have any C02, but I do have C25 and could try if you would like.
Keep up the good work.

Xringer · 11-21-09, 10:48 PM

It seems the Sanyo has dual cap tubes, plus and Electric expansion valve.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/applia...ion-valve.html
I've been looking the diagrams, trying to get a little understanding of the components used in the Sanyo.

That old Chrysler Air Temp was still working, but was too dinged up after removal from the wall to be saved.
I knew it's days were numbered. It was a window unit that got mounted in a hole in the wall.
When I installed it, I didn't plan on ever removing it.

It was turned into the Recyclers shortly after it was replaced.

But the backup Kenmore is a true slide-in wall unit and it can be uninstalled
and kept in good enough condition to sell or re-use somewhere.
This is one you can pull half way out and oil the motor every spring..

I'm pretty sure it's gonna stay put until the end of next summer,
while I see if the Sanyo is as good as I think it is.
The Sanyo has heated my home 24-7 for almost 3 weeks and it hasn't hiccuped once.

AC_Hacker · 11-22-09, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dremd

Still Awesome.
You have some big balls brazing on propane filled copper.
I don't have any C02, but I do have C25 and could try if you would like.
Keep up the good work.

It's not that the balls are big, it's that the amount of propane was very, very small, and not in the least, tightly contained.

...and I was extremely careful to make sure that NO AIR was mixed in with the propane.

I'm afraid that I don't know what C25 is, unless it's a van made by Citroën?

But yes, by all means, test C25 out.

Regards,

-AC_Hacker

%%%%%%%

Xringer · 11-22-09, 02:01 PM

75% Argon, 25% CO2

It's interesting there are two factory charging points on that AC.. Wonder why not just one?

Do they vacuum out the each AC before charging? Or do they have some kind of inert
flushing gas to clean all the air out of the system?

I once read some mini-split AC install directions that said to charge
up the system from one end, while leaving a half-tight fitting on the other end.
Once refrigerant was seen leaking out, crank down the lose fitting.

That sounded a bit crazy, even to me!

dremd · 11-22-09, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer

75% Argon, 25% CO2

Bingo
Very commonly used as a shield gas for welding.

I'll try it this week.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer

I once read some mini-split AC install directions that said to charge
up the system from one end, while leaving a half-tight fitting on the other end.
Once refrigerant was seen leaking out, crank down the lose fitting.

That sounded a bit crazy, even to me!

Agreed, but it would work

I saw an A/C tech purge lines with R-22. Then instead of pulling a vacuum on the system he just blew the air out with R-22. What a waste of good refrigerant, I couldn't believe my eyes.

11-19-09, 08:42 PM	#201
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 115 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	* The very idea! * * The very idea! * It's an idea that's going around.. Here is a forum called DIY and they don't want anyone asking certain AC or Heatpump related DIY questions.. Charging your a/c. - DoItYourself.com Community Forums I guess they want us non-union members to call in an Expert when it's a job they charge a lot for..

11-21-09, 03:45 PM	#203
AC_Hacker Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 4,004 Thanks: 303 Thanked 724 Times in 534 Posts	A/C unit Conversion, Final Dis-Assembly... This post will cover the final dis-assembly of the AC unit, and the careful salvaging of parts for the new unit that we will build... So after extraction, we can now safely cut away the pieces we will not need and carefully remove and set safely aside the parts we will need. Here is a picture of what's left of my unit after extraction... You can see the condenser on the left side and the evaporator on the right side. I'm not going to use them on this project, but they are in pretty good shape, and may come in handy for other projects in the future, So when I remove them I will be very careful to avoid bending the fins. But we will carefully remove and re-use the capillary tube, as it is sized to work with the refrigerant & compressor, and re-using this aprt makes our job drastically easier. Cap tubes and metering devvices, and work by virtue of the fact that their diameter is of a precise size and their length is of a precise length to provide an exactly calculated amount of resistance to the flow of the refrigerant in the circuit. So we don't want to do anything that would change the length or diameter of the cap tube. So when I choose where to make my cuts on the tubing, I will prioritize salvaging the cap tube over salvaging the evaporator & condenser parts. If I can salvage everything, better yet. Here is a photo of the first cut to remove the cap tube. I had to pull the copper tube out away from the evaporator core a small amount to allow me to position and turn the little tube cutter. I left enough of the 1/4 inch tubing so that I will be able to re-braze the cap tube into the new circuit, and not have to change the length of the cap tube. I have made a red mark on the photo to indicate another good place where the cut could have been made... Here is the second cut to remove the cap tube. Space and choices were both very limited here. Not much more to say here, except work very carefully. Please note that cap tube is not made from soft copper like the rest of the tubing is, and it will not bend easily like soft copper. So here's our prize, the part we have been so careful to remove... ...probably a good idea to put the cap tube in a plastic bag to keep any dust & bugs out. So after more cutting, here's what's left: Pix - a shows the compressor, and the condenser core and the evaporator core. Pix - b shows the compressor mounting area on the bottom pan. You may choose to use the bottom pan as is, or you may choose to create a new bottom pan from scratch, or you may choose to cut the compressor mounting section off of the old bottom pan and use it on the new one. Pix - c shows the vibration mounts from the AC unit. There is actually a fair amount of engineering that went into these mounts, so best to save and re-use them no matter how you want to deal with the bottom pan on your new unit. So we now have our unit fully dis-assembled and are ready to begin thinking about how we can re-assemble it into a vapor compression device that will do useful and efficient work for us. Best Regards, -AC_Hacker Attached Thumbnails

11-21-09, 06:11 PM	#204
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 115 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Please note that cap tube is not made from soft copper like the rest of the tubing is, and it will not bend easily like soft copper. Wow.. That's good to know. I had figured (based on looks) that the cap tube was going to be very bendable stuff.. Allowing me to reposition a coil easily.. But, since it has to hold a tight ID tolerance, I can see why it would be made from a harder alloy.. And it helps keep out the kinks. What's the idea behind a dual cap tube setup?? ~~~ Do they ever die?? I can't believe how long this stuff keeps working. In late August of 1968, my wife and I picked up a "Quiet Cool" window AC. Last summer, I checked it. Still working! Put it out in the garage, under a cover. In the summer of 1973, I found a 'blem' 18,000 BTU Chrysler Air Temp at a local strip mall. $200 and it was in the trunk of my LeMans.. In the spring of 2007, my wife fired it up, forgetting to remove the snow cover.. After that, the old power hog didn't work so well. Luckily, I had picked up a used Kenmore 18,000 at a yard sale the summer before(for $200). Not so much power needed per BTU.. Now it had become a backup.. In case the Sanyo fails this summer.. But if the Sanyo is solid all summer, I am thinking of selling the Kenmore and patching up that big hole in the wall..

11-21-09, 10:06 PM	#206
dremd Need More Eco Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Scott, La Posts: 172 Thanks: 2 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	Still Awesome. You have some big balls brazing on propane filled copper. I don't have any C02, but I do have C25 and could try if you would like. Keep up the good work.

11-21-09, 10:48 PM	#207
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 115 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	It seems the Sanyo has dual cap tubes, plus and Electric expansion valve. http://ecorenovator.org/forum/applia...ion-valve.html I've been looking the diagrams, trying to get a little understanding of the components used in the Sanyo. That old Chrysler Air Temp was still working, but was too dinged up after removal from the wall to be saved. I knew it's days were numbered. It was a window unit that got mounted in a hole in the wall. When I installed it, I didn't plan on ever removing it. It was turned into the Recyclers shortly after it was replaced. But the backup Kenmore is a true slide-in wall unit and it can be uninstalled and kept in good enough condition to sell or re-use somewhere. This is one you can pull half way out and oil the motor every spring.. I'm pretty sure it's gonna stay put until the end of next summer, while I see if the Sanyo is as good as I think it is. The Sanyo has heated my home 24-7 for almost 3 weeks and it hasn't hiccuped once.

11-22-09, 02:01 PM	#209
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 115 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	75% Argon, 25% CO2 It's interesting there are two factory charging points on that AC.. Wonder why not just one? Do they vacuum out the each AC before charging? Or do they have some kind of inert flushing gas to clean all the air out of the system? I once read some mini-split AC install directions that said to charge up the system from one end, while leaving a half-tight fitting on the other end. Once refrigerant was seen leaking out, crank down the lose fitting. That sounded a bit crazy, even to me!