GT heat pump - evap coil pinhole leaks - Page 2

stevehull · 08-28-15, 10:22 AM

AC,

Equipment (and brazing) is not the problem. Why buy R22 when dried and filtered propane is available?

I like Jeff's suggestion on charging it up to max and using soapy water to look for leaks. Cheap and visual . . . . and he is right - the R22 has to come out anyway . . .

Over the years I have heard technicians grumble that the sniffers do not find tiny leaks.

That way, I can scan the entire evaporator coil.

Thanks guys!

Steve

AC_Hacker · 08-29-15, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevehull

... Why buy R22 when dried and filtered propane is available?...

SH,

Sounds like you are preparing to leave the safety of dry land, and are about to embark on a long sea voyage, in a ship filled with fools and idiots.

All I can say about that is, "Welcome Aboard!"

-AC

P.S.: Take lots of photos.

stevehull · 08-29-15, 07:05 PM

AC,

I do not understand. I thought you were a big advocate of using dried/filtered propane instead of R22?

Feel free to be specific.

Steve

AC_Hacker · 08-30-15, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevehull

AC,

I do not understand. I thought you were a big advocate of using dried/filtered propane instead of R22?

Feel free to be specific.

Steve

SH,

First, I do not advocate the violation of any laws that govern the area in which you live.
Second, it must be recognized that using any hydrocarbon as a refrigerant gas may be catastrophically dangerous. I do not recommend that anyone undertake any action that could possibly endanger life or property.
Thirdly, it is not reasonable or advisable to expose yourself to any risk whatsoever, and I do not recommend anyone to ever do so.
Forth, only a fool or idiot would ever attempt to use a hydrocarbon gas as a refrigerant, and I would never recommend the practice to anyone.
Fifth, HVAC work of any kind should only be undertaken by a professional, licensed technician, using lawful, approved methods, and working with lawful refrigerants.

That should be pretty clear... any other questions??

Sincerely,

-AC_Hacker

stevehull · 08-30-15, 09:06 PM

from AC Hacker . . .

[I][I][I]Ko_deZ,

I used cooking gas (propane) in my prototype system, which I built to see if I could build a working heat pump. It worked better than I would have imagined.

If you search around, regarding what the 'extra' components are of cooking gas, it probably varies from country to country.

What I found out about local propane is that its purity may vary from 65% to 95%, it will have some moisture in it and the substance that gives it a 'rotton-egg' smell contains sulfur. It will also have some percentage of iso-butane, which is better for cooling, and worse for heating in a heat pump.

The water + sulfur can combine to form sulfuric acid which is not good.

Another poster has reported that he uses this cooking gas in his system successfully, but uses two in-line dryers in series to remove the water, and he claims it removes sulfur also... I have my doubts.

There are a lot of people who use cooking gas to build CPU chilling machines, but in that case the issue of reliability is not as crucial as keeping a home in Norway warm through the winter.

I have decided to use a commercial R-22 organic replacement refrigerant which looks to be super-refined, dry, pure propane with a non-sulphuric scent agent.
.

.

So here is my question - what is wrong with dried propane if you are using it? And what is wrong with the many other people on this site that have used it?

Steve

AC_Hacker · 08-31-15, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevehull

...So here is my question - what is wrong with dried propane if you are using it? And what is wrong with the many other people on this site that have used it?...

Steve,

Every man must face certain moral dilemmas in his life (this is kind of like a refrigerant compressor). The choice may not be clear, choosing one road may have it's pitfalls and disappointments. Following another road, though it may at first appear attractive may, in the end could lead to regret and despair. But each man must find within himself his own special reservoir of power and resolve (kind of like the compressor accumulator that holds excess refrigerant) and he has to make that difficult decision himself (kind of like the expansion orifice). The decision is not always an easy decision, but each man must make the decision, and though the path may be rocky and steep and darkness might deprive him of any solace, he follow the path that his decision will lead him.

I would suggest that you find a quiet place where you can be alone, just you and 'whatever it might be that you worship', and that you should fast and pray until the answer comes to you, no matter how long it might take...

Good luck Steve, and may the force of 'whatever it might be that you worship' be with you in this difficult and perplexing hour.

Sincerely,

-AC

P.S.: As for, "the many other people on this site that have used it"... they obviously are, by their actions, either fools or idiots, and quite possibly fools AND idiots simultaneously. It's as simple as that.

jeff5may · 08-31-15, 07:22 AM

The fact is that natural refrigerant systems work well if designed, assembled and operated properly. They were designed and assembled by the refrigeration industry a century ago. Once the general public started operating these machines, the industry quickly found that there were big risks and liabilities involved with average consumers operating and average techs maintaining them. The industry quickly turned to CFC refrigerant to eliminate these enormous risks and liabilities.

Fast forward to modern times, and the industry is giving them another try. This time, there are warnings, disclaimers, and regulations attached to everything.

The industry has put a cap on the amount of gas the units can contain, as well as special training for their service techs. None of the oem's endorse, condone, or much less recommend retrofitting any existing machinery with natural refrigerants.

Meanwhile, the petroleum industry has been actively working with tons and tons of natural refrigerant every day for over a century. You can quickly count a few titanic disasters related to the improper handling or processing of natural gases.

doug30293 · 08-31-15, 02:10 PM

There is an engineering report somewhere on the web of an R22 HVAC compressor unit exploding because the service tech failed to evacuate it properly before charging with refrigerant. R22 has a range of combustability and this guy found it.

The tech was hospitalized after being retrieved from low earth orbit. The site photographs show the effects of a large fireball but little that would be recognized as the remains of a condensing unit.

The HC vs HFC argument will go on ad infinitum like arguments about rifle calibers, brands of boot grease, and of course politics and religion. The important thing is to learn the subject (including the rules) before hacking potentially dangerous equipment. I did it so it can't be that hard.

marx290 · 09-03-15, 10:11 AM

Haha. This thread greatly entertaining!

As you can tell by my username, I'm a big fan of propane as a refrigerant; it is cheap, and has some great properties. But, we need be realistic: HD-5 is dirty, and has a temperature glide. Although relatively benign if vented, it will blow your face off in the right conditions. (Wrong conditions?!)

I would not recommend the use of HC refrigerants to anyone unable to appreciate the potential dangers involved. But to be honest, anyone handling high pressure saturated refrigerants (of any kind), SHOULD HAVE ENOUGH SENSE TO WORK WITH PROPANE.

If I lived in the country, and had the space, I would set up some experiments to intentionally ignite a leaky system in a confined space, just to see how easy it is. No matter how unlikely an accident may be, someone, somewhere will find a way to make it happen. A person might be smart, but people are dumb. We're living in the adolescent stage of cultural evolution.

Be warned!

P.S. AC Hacker, I personally pray to the gods of entropy. May they sweep my 90s, cool my windings, vanquish my flash gas, and bring tidings of low delta T. Amen

AC_Hacker · 09-04-15, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marx290

...AC Hacker, I personally pray to the gods of entropy. May they sweep my 90s, cool my windings, vanquish my flash gas, and bring tidings of low delta T. Amen...

Wow! Mighty big request. You may have to sacrifice a goat to get all that stuff to come true.

-AC

08-28-15, 10:22 AM	#11
stevehull Steve Hull Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: hilly, tree covered Arcadia, OK USA Posts: 826 Thanks: 241 Thanked 165 Times in 123 Posts	AC, Equipment (and brazing) is not the problem. Why buy R22 when dried and filtered propane is available? I like Jeff's suggestion on charging it up to max and using soapy water to look for leaks. Cheap and visual . . . . and he is right - the R22 has to come out anyway . . . Over the years I have heard technicians grumble that the sniffers do not find tiny leaks. That way, I can scan the entire evaporator coil. Thanks guys! Steve __________________ consulting on geothermal heating/cooling & rational energy use since 1990

08-29-15, 07:05 PM	#13
stevehull Steve Hull Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: hilly, tree covered Arcadia, OK USA Posts: 826 Thanks: 241 Thanked 165 Times in 123 Posts	AC, I do not understand. I thought you were a big advocate of using dried/filtered propane instead of R22? Feel free to be specific. Steve __________________ consulting on geothermal heating/cooling & rational energy use since 1990

08-30-15, 09:06 PM	#15
stevehull Steve Hull Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: hilly, tree covered Arcadia, OK USA Posts: 826 Thanks: 241 Thanked 165 Times in 123 Posts	from AC Hacker . . . [I][I][I]Ko_deZ, I used cooking gas (propane) in my prototype system, which I built to see if I could build a working heat pump. It worked better than I would have imagined. If you search around, regarding what the 'extra' components are of cooking gas, it probably varies from country to country. What I found out about local propane is that its purity may vary from 65% to 95%, it will have some moisture in it and the substance that gives it a 'rotton-egg' smell contains sulfur. It will also have some percentage of iso-butane, which is better for cooling, and worse for heating in a heat pump. The water + sulfur can combine to form sulfuric acid which is not good. Another poster has reported that he uses this cooking gas in his system successfully, but uses two in-line dryers in series to remove the water, and he claims it removes sulfur also... I have my doubts. There are a lot of people who use cooking gas to build CPU chilling machines, but in that case the issue of reliability is not as crucial as keeping a home in Norway warm through the winter. I have decided to use a commercial R-22 organic replacement refrigerant which looks to be super-refined, dry, pure propane with a non-sulphuric scent agent. . . So here is my question - what is wrong with dried propane if you are using it? And what is wrong with the many other people on this site that have used it? Steve __________________ consulting on geothermal heating/cooling & rational energy use since 1990

08-31-15, 07:22 AM	#17
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,431 Thanks: 432 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	The fact is that natural refrigerant systems work well if designed, assembled and operated properly. They were designed and assembled by the refrigeration industry a century ago. Once the general public started operating these machines, the industry quickly found that there were big risks and liabilities involved with average consumers operating and average techs maintaining them. The industry quickly turned to CFC refrigerant to eliminate these enormous risks and liabilities. Fast forward to modern times, and the industry is giving them another try. This time, there are warnings, disclaimers, and regulations attached to everything. The industry has put a cap on the amount of gas the units can contain, as well as special training for their service techs. None of the oem's endorse, condone, or much less recommend retrofitting any existing machinery with natural refrigerants. Meanwhile, the petroleum industry has been actively working with tons and tons of natural refrigerant every day for over a century. You can quickly count a few titanic disasters related to the improper handling or processing of natural gases. Last edited by jeff5may; 09-07-15 at 02:32 PM.. Reason: soelling spell check

09-03-15, 10:11 AM	#19
marx290 Vapor Compression Goon Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 63 Thanks: 11 Thanked 22 Times in 11 Posts	Haha. This thread greatly entertaining! As you can tell by my username, I'm a big fan of propane as a refrigerant; it is cheap, and has some great properties. But, we need be realistic: HD-5 is dirty, and has a temperature glide. Although relatively benign if vented, it will blow your face off in the right conditions. (Wrong conditions?!) I would not recommend the use of HC refrigerants to anyone unable to appreciate the potential dangers involved. But to be honest, anyone handling high pressure saturated refrigerants (of any kind), SHOULD HAVE ENOUGH SENSE TO WORK WITH PROPANE. If I lived in the country, and had the space, I would set up some experiments to intentionally ignite a leaky system in a confined space, just to see how easy it is. No matter how unlikely an accident may be, someone, somewhere will find a way to make it happen. A person might be smart, but people are dumb. We're living in the adolescent stage of cultural evolution. Be warned! P.S. AC Hacker, I personally pray to the gods of entropy. May they sweep my 90s, cool my windings, vanquish my flash gas, and bring tidings of low delta T. Amen __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-31-15, 02:10 PM	#18
doug30293 Too Many Projects Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: georgia Posts: 91 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	There is an engineering report somewhere on the web of an R22 HVAC compressor unit exploding because the service tech failed to evacuate it properly before charging with refrigerant. R22 has a range of combustability and this guy found it. The tech was hospitalized after being retrieved from low earth orbit. The site photographs show the effects of a large fireball but little that would be recognized as the remains of a condensing unit. The HC vs HFC argument will go on ad infinitum like arguments about rifle calibers, brands of boot grease, and of course politics and religion. The important thing is to learn the subject (including the rules) before hacking potentially dangerous equipment. I did it so it can't be that hard.