2 Charge controllers on same battery bank!?

bennelson · 10-12-11, 10:47 AM

Hey Guys,

I have a question for you.

I have a bank of batteries running at 48V. I am charging them with a 48V UPS (uninterruptable power supply.)

I have some PV. Very basic, just several amorphous panels - 12V/15w from the 45 watt solar panel set available at Harbor Freight.

I have a Xantrex solar charge controller that will run at 12/24/48V.

What I would like to do is be able to charge the batteries from either the UPS (which can charge at up to 10 amps) OR from the solar (which would be a much lower amp rate, but FROM THE SUN!)

My question is, how do I do this? Would I need a manual switch? Could I simply just have BOTH hooked up at the same time?

I have noticed that the UPS needs to be "pre-charged" before connecting a battery pack to it, similar to what you do in an electric car with the motor controller. If I had to manually switch back and forth between solar charging and UPS charging, that may play into it.

I have two sets of batteries. One is AGMs on a rack near the UPS. The other is AGMs in my electric motorcycle (also running at 48V). I want to be able to charge the motorcycle with this system, and after that's charged, charge the stationary set of batteries. I would have one or the other set of batteries connected to the charging system at all times.

I want to be able to USE the batteries by either driving the electric motorcycle OR feeding the power back through the UPS to power my garage or house in event of a blackout.

I already have it all figured out and working for the UPS blackout protection, and have 50 amp Anderson disconnects to be able to easily connect either the cycle or the stationary battery pack to the UPS. I just want to figure how to integrate a little bit of solar power.

Daox · 10-12-11, 02:08 PM

Interesting setup idea Ben.

What if you just ran the AGMs on the rack in parallel with your bike's pack? Just plug in and have the batteries balance each other? Possibly too much current?

Anyway, it sounds like the bigger problem is switching from the PV to the UPS and back. Honestly this would be a great place to use an arduino unless you really have a good way of monitoring things and manually switching them. I don't think you'd want them both hooked up at the same time. One or the other will always be backfeeding power into the other because one will have a higher voltage than the other. It would be just like you can't use two chargers on one battery.

bennelson · 10-12-11, 03:26 PM

The stationary batteries are about 100 ah and the ones on the cycle are 55 ah, so to put them in parallel with each other, I don't think makes sense.

I did see a setup a while back that a guy did with a some relays and a cheap-o grid-tie inverter. It charged batteries, and once the batteries were charged, it kicked the solar power over to the grid tie to reduce his household energy usage by a tad.

MetroMPG · 10-12-11, 03:51 PM

I believe you can just leave the solar panels connected to the charge controller connected to the pack.

You shouldn't have to disconnect the charge controller to charge the pack from the grid/UPS charger.

The solar charge controllers will simply see voltage greater than X, and won't do anything if that's the case.

bennelson · 10-12-11, 04:01 PM

That's sort of what I was thinking.

What if I just left the solar charge controller connected and simply UNPLUGGED the UPS from wall power when I wanted to exclusively use solar?

Then the UPS isn't charging the batteries, the voltage is lower, and the solar sends power to the batts.

If I want, at night, I could just plug the UPS back in.

Granted, it's manual, but there are plenty of times that I might want several days of solar, and then just use the UPS to top the batteries off.

Xringer · 10-12-11, 04:19 PM

Your UPS will likely top off your AGMs and hold them at a high (float)voltage that will keep
your solar PV controller from ever turning on. But the Xantrex has an adjustable float voltage..
The problem with cranking it up, to use the PV, might be excessively high float voltage.

You might want to put the UPS AC power input on an SSR, that is controlled by the amount of sun available.
That would give the solar a chance to work.

When you wanted to use the chargers to charge up a discharged bank or motorcycle, both sources should feed power in,
while the pack voltage was low..

My backup system is doing nothing these days, but staying in float all day long..
500w of tracking PV array going to waste..

Wish it was running a GTI.. But that would be illegal..

MetroMPG · 10-12-11, 04:22 PM

Sounds good to me. I'd do that.

bennelson · 10-12-11, 04:57 PM

So when pack voltage is low, you don't see any problem having BOTH sources of charging hooked up to the same batteries?

Another possibility would even be sometime like just having the UPS on a TIMER, so that it only turns on to charge at night-time hours.

Xringer · 10-12-11, 08:30 PM

Yeah, it might not work. Your charger does PWM and that might mess with the UPS charger..
But, maybe it's like my TriStar TS-45, which has a dip switch setting to reduce RF noise.
It turns off the PWM and goes into an OFF-ON type of charging.
(Not as effective as PWM, but does the job)..

Hey, I might have to try that out on my back-up rig..
I'll be able to listen to AM radio again during sunny days!!

Anyways, your PV charge controller should take itself out of charge mode,
when the bank hits it's target voltage (pre-set set-point).
So, if the bank voltage is being held high by the UPS charger.. Your PV goes unused.

But, if the bank is at 11.5 volts, both units will (should) try to feed it current..

I wonder about just using solar during sunny days and turning on the UPS charger at night..?.
If you had some real PV power, that would be the way to go..

10-12-11, 10:47 AM	#1
bennelson Home-Wrecker Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 546 Thanks: 3 Thanked 165 Times in 96 Posts	2 Charge controllers on same battery bank!? Hey Guys, I have a question for you. I have a bank of batteries running at 48V. I am charging them with a 48V UPS (uninterruptable power supply.) I have some PV. Very basic, just several amorphous panels - 12V/15w from the 45 watt solar panel set available at Harbor Freight. I have a Xantrex solar charge controller that will run at 12/24/48V. What I would like to do is be able to charge the batteries from either the UPS (which can charge at up to 10 amps) OR from the solar (which would be a much lower amp rate, but FROM THE SUN!) My question is, how do I do this? Would I need a manual switch? Could I simply just have BOTH hooked up at the same time? I have noticed that the UPS needs to be "pre-charged" before connecting a battery pack to it, similar to what you do in an electric car with the motor controller. If I had to manually switch back and forth between solar charging and UPS charging, that may play into it. I have two sets of batteries. One is AGMs on a rack near the UPS. The other is AGMs in my electric motorcycle (also running at 48V). I want to be able to charge the motorcycle with this system, and after that's charged, charge the stationary set of batteries. I would have one or the other set of batteries connected to the charging system at all times. I want to be able to USE the batteries by either driving the electric motorcycle OR feeding the power back through the UPS to power my garage or house in event of a blackout. I already have it all figured out and working for the UPS blackout protection, and have 50 amp Anderson disconnects to be able to easily connect either the cycle or the stationary battery pack to the UPS. I just want to figure how to integrate a little bit of solar power. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-12-11, 02:08 PM	#2
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	Interesting setup idea Ben. What if you just ran the AGMs on the rack in parallel with your bike's pack? Just plug in and have the batteries balance each other? Possibly too much current? Anyway, it sounds like the bigger problem is switching from the PV to the UPS and back. Honestly this would be a great place to use an arduino unless you really have a good way of monitoring things and manually switching them. I don't think you'd want them both hooked up at the same time. One or the other will always be backfeeding power into the other because one will have a higher voltage than the other. It would be just like you can't use two chargers on one battery. __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-12-11, 03:26 PM	#3
bennelson Home-Wrecker Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 546 Thanks: 3 Thanked 165 Times in 96 Posts	The stationary batteries are about 100 ah and the ones on the cycle are 55 ah, so to put them in parallel with each other, I don't think makes sense. I did see a setup a while back that a guy did with a some relays and a cheap-o grid-tie inverter. It charged batteries, and once the batteries were charged, it kicked the solar power over to the grid tie to reduce his household energy usage by a tad. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-12-11, 03:51 PM	#4
MetroMPG Infrequent noob Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: 1000 Islands region, Ontario, Canada Posts: 402 Thanks: 37 Thanked 20 Times in 19 Posts	I believe you can just leave the solar panels connected to the charge controller connected to the pack. You shouldn't have to disconnect the charge controller to charge the pack from the grid/UPS charger. The solar charge controllers will simply see voltage greater than X, and won't do anything if that's the case. __________________ . To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-12-11, 04:01 PM	#5
bennelson Home-Wrecker Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 546 Thanks: 3 Thanked 165 Times in 96 Posts	That's sort of what I was thinking. What if I just left the solar charge controller connected and simply UNPLUGGED the UPS from wall power when I wanted to exclusively use solar? Then the UPS isn't charging the batteries, the voltage is lower, and the solar sends power to the batts. If I want, at night, I could just plug the UPS back in. Granted, it's manual, but there are plenty of times that I might want several days of solar, and then just use the UPS to top the batteries off. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-12-11, 04:19 PM	#6
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 115 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Your UPS will likely top off your AGMs and hold them at a high (float)voltage that will keep your solar PV controller from ever turning on. But the Xantrex has an adjustable float voltage.. The problem with cranking it up, to use the PV, might be excessively high float voltage. You might want to put the UPS AC power input on an SSR, that is controlled by the amount of sun available. That would give the solar a chance to work. When you wanted to use the chargers to charge up a discharged bank or motorcycle, both sources should feed power in, while the pack voltage was low.. My backup system is doing nothing these days, but staying in float all day long.. 500w of tracking PV array going to waste.. Wish it was running a GTI.. But that would be illegal..

10-12-11, 04:22 PM	#7
MetroMPG Infrequent noob Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: 1000 Islands region, Ontario, Canada Posts: 402 Thanks: 37 Thanked 20 Times in 19 Posts	Sounds good to me. I'd do that. __________________ . To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-12-11, 04:57 PM	#8
bennelson Home-Wrecker Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 546 Thanks: 3 Thanked 165 Times in 96 Posts	So when pack voltage is low, you don't see any problem having BOTH sources of charging hooked up to the same batteries? Another possibility would even be sometime like just having the UPS on a TIMER, so that it only turns on to charge at night-time hours. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-12-11, 08:30 PM	#9
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 115 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Yeah, it might not work. Your charger does PWM and that might mess with the UPS charger.. But, maybe it's like my TriStar TS-45, which has a dip switch setting to reduce RF noise. It turns off the PWM and goes into an OFF-ON type of charging. (Not as effective as PWM, but does the job).. Hey, I might have to try that out on my back-up rig.. I'll be able to listen to AM radio again during sunny days!! Anyways, your PV charge controller should take itself out of charge mode, when the bank hits it's target voltage (pre-set set-point). So, if the bank voltage is being held high by the UPS charger.. Your PV goes unused. But, if the bank is at 11.5 volts, both units will (should) try to feed it current.. I wonder about just using solar during sunny days and turning on the UPS charger at night..?. If you had some real PV power, that would be the way to go..