I have no clue, mine was just the rubber that comes attached to the lineset, its all there inside the house but has mostly shed off from the siding to the condenser. I was just at the hardware store and saw a 4 foot section for $2. I figure I'll be there between now and when I turn the A/C on so I didn't buy it, I looked for some sort of insulating tape and didn't find anything. I found some decent looking fairly thin R3 ductwork insulation that I would have bought if it wasn't 12' long and 15" wide and $22, I'd need something cheaper and will probably buy rigid board of some sort and attach that.

You may be able to find what you are looking for in the plumbing department, as 'pipe-wrapping tape'.


Here's some stuff that's pretty close to what I used. As I recall, my line-set was 15' and I ended up using two rolls to do the whole job.

When you wrap, don't pull the tape too tight as that will reduce the thickness.

Regards,

-AC_Hacker

Pinpointed the pinhole
 

Pinpointed the pinhole in the leaky outdoor unit.

It was nice and warm in the garage today, so I popped the covers of the leaker, pulled out the thermistor,
and did the nitrogen soap bubble thing..

Here's the Dental view of the leak location (under the bubble foam).
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...dentalview.jpg
As soon as the soap was bushed on, I could see a tiny stream of little
micro droplets (or micro bubbles?) spraying out from between the tubes.

Looking down (Started reaching inside with the camera).
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1.../NCL/soapy.jpg

Close up of the silver solder (soap wiped away).
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...r/NCL/leak.jpg

That does not appear to be a Stress point. I think maybe too much heat was
applied when the little tube was soldered on. When the parts were cherry
red, the clamp used to hold the parts together may have crushed the
short tube into the compressor output tube.?.

Now that I know where the leak is, I can figure out how to get it repaired.

I think that little short tube (thermistor holder) needs to be removed.
Then, the area where it was bonded, needs to be flowed over with silver solder.

I'm kinda wondering about flooding the inside of the system with nitrogen
while soldering, since the gas might exhaust out the leak hole, pushing
any silver-solder out.. :confused:

I guess the small tube with need to be opened, to allow the gas to flow out,
under minimal pressure. I just hope there aren't too many restrictions
to the flow, so pressure isn't going to screw up the soldering job..

Just added up the last 12 months of KW hours. We used 7,636 kWh.
Paying about .21 cents per, the cost is about $1,604 USD per year/ $133.63 per month (on average).

Using 20.92 kWh per day on average.

IIRC, before we got the Sanyo, we used about 500 kWh per month (ave) 6,000 kWh per year.
So the Sanyo is adding about 1636 kWh ($343.56) to our yearly cost.
LOL! that comes out to less than one buck a day..
Or, $28.63 additional cost per month.

We pay $48 to $60 per month to go Candle Pin bowling!! :o

Pressure test results
 

Today (July 17,2011), it's been sitting at 90F for hours..
So, looking at the chart below, I figured about 117 PSI would be on the service port. (w/75f indoors running 400 to 1400w).

When first checked, in low power mode (400-440w), it read 165 PSI.
Which seems pretty high to me. When in idle mode, it read 210 PSI.
When I called for more cooling, went out and watched it, it dipped to 100,
then climbed back up to 130-135 PSI, while using 1220 watts.
That seemed pretty ball park.

After a while, it settled at 145 PSI @ 1030w. So, I called for another degC of cooling and got 125 PSI @ 1500w. Pretty close.?.

Then, I wanted to see if it would get down lower with more power,
so I asked for another degC and the 8A auto-breaker cut the power for a second, causing a reset.
(It must have peaked pretty quickly).
After the pwr reset, 800 to 1000w showed 150 PSI.
The last long steady run was at 1100w @ 145 PSI.

I'm not sure what "Hi Fan" on the chart means, but the outdoor fan was
running at ~50% to 80% max speed during measurements.

So, when I took the winter pressure, it seemed low to me,
now that I've done the summer measurement, it seems high.. :confused:

What do you guys think? Just leave it alone and go watch TV?

Thanks for any comments.
Rich

PS:
I forgot to post the cooling chart!
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...oolingmode.png

After adding the Low Pressure Performance chart to my last post, it makes a little more sense.

The winter pressure test looked too low, and the summer measurement, is too high..
I'm at a loss here. Anyone have any ideas why this is occurring?


The Sanyo is still working the same as it ever was. Heating and cooling is great.

Thanks,
Rich

ringer,
Been following your Sanyo journey. Your working on some black magic stuff. Would like to know the real world freon stuff.

I've not started on mine yet. Staying out of the hot garage. Have a couple projects started. Power tube bender bender and a plasma cnc table build .

Xringer, any progress on repairing the old unit so it can be used for testing with alternative uses? Another thought, could a normal digital thermostat be wired to the Sanyo to control in instead of the Indoor unit?

Random aside, I wonder why no minisplit maker has produced a unit for use with regular split HVAC systems. They could probably just specify a matched indoor coil made by a non-oem company if they didn't want the added trouble of designing and manuf. a new indoor coil. You could have the efficiency of a minisplit(provided it was matched with a Variable speed blower equipped furnace) with the aesthetics and common-ness of a regular split HVAC system.

Adam

Adam

Lazy boy..
 

I have been so busy with all sorts of stuff this summer, (including long bike rides)
that I have not even looked at that project. Yesterday, I posted about the decision
I will have to make, once the unit is repaired.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...t-pumps-7.html

Before the inverter units came along, the main reasons for mini-split efficiency
was the fact it was duct-less. No duct-work losses.

Connecting a unit like my spare 2-ton to an older ducted 3-speed central air system,
might not be too bad, depending on the duct insulation and tightness of the house etc.

I'm really tempted to use my spare Sanyo for hot-water.
BUT, buying another indoor unit isn't real expensive, and a sure thing to make my wife happy.
She would just love to have a nice warm den during the dead of winter..
It would also be a back-up for the main Sanyo, since it could also heat or cool most of the living area.

Hey nothing wrong with that, I love bike riding! Used to ride probably 5-10 miles a day before I had my license just doing stuff with friends. Sadly, since I can drive now that's gone down to almost null.
And ahh the great decision. Can you run that unit on R-290? I thought those Sanyo's were R-410a units, which has a different P-T curve and uses non-compatible oil. Would this not cause running problems?

I didn't even think about the times before inverter mini-splits. I was only thinking about them as always having used inverter tech. It surprises me it's taken so long for Split systems to adopt the inverter tech. While mini splits have used them for years Carrier just came out with the Greenspeed (I believe other companies too) condensers within the past year or two.

Now see that's going to be tough, satisfy your own curiosity, or please the wife. Must weigh these two very carefully. :p With a second minisplit in the den running, I'd bet there are verrry few times you'd need the oil. Two running in really cold weather even at lower outputs might combined be enough to keep you warm?

If you really wanted to get fancy here, I wonder if you could do both, heat water and run an indoor unit. It could be fairly simple utilizing two reversing valves as three way valves to switch the flow between the exchanger an the indoor unit. Feeling up to a challenge? :)

Adam

Give the oil burner away on craigslist and heat water for heat and domestic use with the other unit?

S-F's got the right idea. I thought about that, but its just too simple. LOL And I'm not sure even two Sayno's would be able to provide all the heat esp when you need it most, when its cooold.

Adam

That old HS Tarm is my main backup heat. If we get some global cooling,
it's going to come in very handy.. The nice thing about the HS Tarm, the
water jacket is made out of repairable steel.. Theoretically, it could last
another 20 to 50 years.

Any chance you could hook the HX from the hacked HP to water return on the Boiler? and set it to run at a lower temp so it would only fire if the HP couldn't keep the circulating water up to temp?

Adam

That's right along the lines, I've been thinking about..
Here's a new post..
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...html#post15540

I rec'd a quote last week for $9300 for a 30K BTU Mitsu unit, and after reading this thread, I just don't see any way to justify those numbers. Sooo, I've just put in an order for a Fujitsu 24RLXFW. Honestly, I'm a little terrified right now. I've never done any electrical or HVAC work. I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain once I get a little deeper into this. Thanks for writing your experiences! I'm not sure yet, but I think you've saved me thousands of $. :)

Nice choice.
 

Ah ha! "Heating Range (BTU/h) 7,500-36,200"!
I'll bet that will work right down to about 5deg F too. Should be pretty good for NJ weather!

I think you might want to check out some of the newer install videos on youtube.

The Fujitsu 24RLXFW seems like a terrific unit. And the price (Under $2,300) is dang good.

Start up a thread and post a URL to the manual, so you can refer to page
numbers when asking those DIY questions.

I think we might have 4 or 5 Mini-split DYI installers here, so you should
get some good input.


If you read the manual and decide it's just too much to deal with,
maybe you could look around for more estimates.
I'll bet an estimates could be lower, if you already had a pad installed
and the 230v service was ready to go.
Unless, you have to snake 80 feet of line-set all over the place.. ;)

Cheers,
Rich

You had me do a double take. Heating is "only 27K". :P But yeah, should be good for any temp we see here. It's only 600 sq ft with 11 ft ceilings, but with garage doors being so leaky, I upsized a bit. I hope it'll work out.

Actually, it's going in my garage, and the outside unit will go just behind the wall and down 8 feet (will be wall mounted to avoid issues with snow accum against the back of the garage). I'll spend 5 minutes snaking my line set and probably another 2 hours gently coiling up the excess. Electric panel is right in the garage too. Funny thing is, the first installer was a no show, second never bothered to give me the quote (seemed more interested in selling a radiant heat system), and this was the 3rd quote. I had another guy scheduled to come out next week, but at this point my mind is made up...DIY.

Unit will go above that trash can about a foot down from the ceiling. Electric panel is on the left and outside unit will go somewhere along that back right behind the inside unit.

*sigh* Must have 5 or more posts to link pictures! Pics removed.

I'd say that you have ordered a spectacular garage heater.

How much time do you spend in the garage?

How do you heat the rest of the house?

-AC_Hacker

Not that much time spent in the garage. I do work on the cars from time to time, and I've always wanted a proper workspace (which includes conditioned air). As a side benefit, my dog gets to enjoy it when the weather doesn't cooperate. It doubles as his playroom. This winter it also gives me a place to miter replacement moldings that fell victim to him (one yr old Golden that passes time chewing molding at my expense).

Rest of the house is central air and natural gas furnace for heat.

Xringer,

Thanks for the great thread on DIY mini splits. Its the best on the Internet. Thanks to you and all the other contributers, I have jump in, and purchased two Frigidaire FRS18PYS2 mini splits to replace two of my aging 28 year old Friedrich PTAC units and will post a new DIY thread shortly.

Many thanks.

Thanks, I hope it didn't take all week to read.. ;)
Can't wait to see your install thread. Don't forget to post us a URL to the manual.pdf !

Cheers,
Rich

Couple quick questions:
1. What size hole do you think would work for a 3/8" + 5/8" lineset (plus the wires and condensate tube). Seems like I'm finding 3" is generally recommended, but in some cases 4" is needed and I might be on the border. I need to order a hole saw, mandrel and extension. Everything I have only goes to 2.5".
2. Did the wall sleeve come with the mini split? I don't see that sold separately.
3. Where did you get the condensate tube, or did you fit standard clear vinyl tubing from a big box store? I've found some places that sell the flex condensate tube...in 100 ft lengths! If run outside, I'm guessing uninsulated tube is fine (everything will eventualy be wrapped in the foam tape you mentioned in the thread)?

TIA!

1. Mine was 3", and by the time I was done, I was wishing for 4".. (The insulation is bulky).
2. My online dealer package contained the parts needed (plus the 3" sleeve).
3. The kit also included a condensate tube.

See the bottom of this page:
24KHS72 - Sanyo 24,200 BTU Wall Mount Heat Pump Air Conditioner Kit (Out of Stock)

No need for the condensate tube to be wrapped up, it's only needed in the summertime.
If you wanted to drain the water elsewhere, you could rig up an extension.
Be very careful not to allow insects to get up in there and block it up,
or water will be running down your wall.

When drilling the hole, made sure it's at a slight downwards angle,
so no water will sit in the hose during cold weather.

My lineset had foam insulation over most of it. I only wrapped up the exposed copper, And the valve hardware.

Cheers,
Rich

How is the overvoltage / pressure situation panning out? That's honestly the one thing making me leery of getting into this.

I realize you are addressing this to Xringer, but I will volunteer that I have had my mini-split for about two years, and I have had none of the overvoltage / pressure problems that Xringer has had. I have a unit that is from the same manufacturer (Sanyo), but is smaller than his unit.

S-F, if you are considering a mini-split, you should ask the other posters here who have installed one, I think there are several mini-split installs represented here.

I really don't know why Xringer has had the problems he has had. Although I wasn't there on the scene when he did his install, I think he did a better install than I did. I gave him all the info and ideas I had from my install and he seems to be a very methodical and precise kind of guy, more so than I am.

I have no idea what the heat load for his house is, I don't think he actually did a heat load calc... most people don't (big mistake).

I did do a heat load calc on my house, and used several different methods, including computerized programs (I tried three different ones), spread sheet heat loss estimators (see Build it Solar), and lastly, heating the house with some resistance heaters and measuring the power each one of them consumed (each heater had it's own Kill-a-Watt), during an actual design condition (17 degrees over three days (unusual for where I live).

So I made sure that the mini-split I ordered would cover the actual heat load (just barely), both calculated and measured, for my house.

This could be Xringer's problem.

Other than that, the problem he is having is very unusual.

It could possibly be his model in a particular production run.

But as a technology, mini-splits are usually very reliable and trouble free, and cost effective, and a no-hassle pleasure to use.

Regards,

-AC_Hacker

I know that yours has been trouble free. I have kept a keen eye out for any mention you make of yours.
I can't get the numbers from measuring my usage because I wouldn't use it for heat but AC only. It would be more expensive to run one in the winter instead of my current CNG setup. I'll have to get some professional input on sizes when I end up going through with this. My house doesn't have many operable windows and out of all of them only one can fit a 5,000 BTU casement shaker. We were dying for a while this summer.

No Problem now..
 

I'm pretty sure that heat load doesn't have anything to do with it.
I can go in right now, (it's 77 out) and set it for cooling and it will
work okay, but only if I call for 75-76 of cooling..
If I call for 72, the Sanyo motors will go into high gear and
within two or three minutes, it will be heading for 3.6 KW.
The button marked "High Power" will cause the same problem.

Since I built and installed a very sensitive circuit breaker
that self-resets, over current is no longer a problem.
During the winter defrost cycles, it used to overload
at the end of each cycle.. Now it just hiccups, resets
and repeats a few times and runs normally.

Since my replacement unit was from the same lot,
it could be a bad lot.. Or maybe not.
I have heard of at least two other Sanyo owners who have had
problems with overly high current draw.

I've been told the High-Power mode runs the system at 130%.
I guess that means it's going try busting a gut.?.
Anyways, mine seems to do the HP mode whenever
I call for a big change in temp or it's just finished defrosting.

I'm considering buying a new indoor unit to use with
my repaired spare, but if I was starting fresh,
I would not buy a Sanyo of this vintage. (It's not a new design).

Of course, but that depends on the local cost of electricity, local cost of gas, efficiency of the mini-split, and efficiency of your gas heater.

Have you checked out this Fuel Comparison Calculator on Build it Solar? It is really very useful, as it takes all of those factors into consideration and also gives you CO2 output for each.

I don't know what your gas heat efficiency is, but the Fujitsu Halcyon has the highest efficiency of the mini-splits. The 15,000 BTU, which actually puts out 18,000 BTU, has a Heating seasonal Performance Factor of 11, which implies a COP of 3.23.

If you wanted to do a rough comparison, figure that you'll need 12,000 BTU per 1,000 square foot, and compair the mini-split with gas. You might be pleasantly surprised. BTW, that mini-split (Fujitsu Halcyon 15RLS) qualifies for tax credits, possibly state & fed.

-AC_Hacker

PS: I do not own stock in Fujutsu.

Thanks XRinger! I actually wanted to order from the same place you did, but their lack of invertory killed it for me. It's a shame, because they are one of the few (only!) places that sell you everything soup to nuts, and provide after sale technical support. I think I'll keep track of where I buy all the bits and bobbles and provide that list so the next guy doesn't have to hunt and peck as much. It's a real PITA to find a short length of condensate tube and a wall sleeve > 3".

Thanks for the other tips. Funny you mentioned the insects because I have an ant problem outside and in the dry summer months they go looking for any source of moisture. I've been pondering what to do with this condensate tube, but so far no real solution.

Dang, they are even line-set kits are out of stock!
DHS0006 - 1/4 X 5/8 Insulated Lineset (OUT OF STOCK)

Being out of stock for the 24KHS72 is normal for them.
The stuff comes in on a slow boat from China..

The drain end of my tube is hanging in the air, about 18" off the ground.
Just to make it a little harder for bugs to get to it.

I may push some stainless steel mesh up into it one of these days.
That will keep out the bugs and let the water flow down..

I found some line-sets on Ebay. The prices aren't too far out of line..
15 ft. Mini Split A/C Connection Line Set 1/4" X 5/8" for all refrigerants | eBay

His store is at: maximmarket2001 | eBay

I've spoken to the guy who runs the store, David (847)373-0320
and he handles Haier Mini-Splits and can provide a wide range of line sets. (up to 90 feet).

Well, I gave up on the condensate tube and bought a 160 ft roll of Airtec DHQ16 (5/8" or 16mm UV resistant). The prices incl shipping costs people were asking were crazy. So I'll just pass on my "group buy" at cost + actual shipping to anyone that needs it.

Ended up with a 2.5" diameter wall sleeve...that's the best I could find. Model number commonly used for it is FPS-65 if you do a google search. Should be about $8 plus shipping give or take.
The mini split is getting delivered today. I can start working on layout today, but that's it. Still hunting and pecking for tools and such. The Robinair pump seems adequate, but you can't get parts for it. Anything that is rebuildable isn't cheap. No middle ground that I can see.

You should start up a DIY build thread.. I noticed that my drain Sanyo hose
(now hoses, since I own two units) came with an adapter.
I guess so a larger hose size could be used. Didn't use it before,
But I might use one this time..

That was the plan after I had done more research and acquired everything I needed. Right now I'm still in google-land trying to figure out what's what. I get myself lost sometimes. Found a vac gauge for under $200 that's extremely accurate with very high resolution. Only problem is I found a lot of HVAC guys saying it drove them crazy because now they would see movement. The issue was that movement seemed to be more related to the manifolds and hoses they were using. Using the best quality hoses and a high quality manifold gets expensive. If your equipment can reliably hold ultra low vac levels, only then will you know whether the system as moisture free as it can be.

Anyway, I want to get a little further down the road before I start compiling the info. *edit* Just realized we can edit the posts. As long as I can do that indefinitely, I can consolidate and maintain all the info into the first post in the thread and discussion can follow below. *doh*

Oh, that adapter, I'm guessing it might be to adapt the metric output to standard sized hoses. The company you bought the mini split from supplied you with an Airtec hose that should connect directly to the Sanyo without the use of an adapter, so I don't think you need it. But for those that are buying 1/2" vinyl hose from home depot, that adapter would probably come in handy. Nice gesture on Sanyo's part.

Try using soft copper tubing for your center hose.

Get some female 1/4" flare fittings for each end and flare your tube.

...no leaks, cheap.

-AC_Hacker

2.5" diameter wall sleeve ?? That sounds kinda small to me.
What size line set are you going to be using? With the insulation, those things are bulky!

If you think it's going to be real tight (like mine was), install your tube with a foot of 1/4" plastic tube inside. (Don't use soft tube).
So if you compress the drain tube too much, it won't be pinched off and send a flood down your wall.

Don't worry too much about a small ID, since the water output is at a very low rate..
A 1/4" OD line could handle the flow easily..

Sorry, fell off the map. I've ordered the lineset covers, hole saw and a couple other things. Scored a deal on a brand new vac pump off CL this weekend. now working on vac gauge, manifold, hoses and possibly valve core removers and nitrogen purge equipment. When the wall sleeve arrives I'll dry fit all the bits into it and see where I stand. I think it will be okay. The suction line is 1 3/8" total and the condensate is 5/8". I'm assuming the factory lines coming out of the indoor unit have 3/8" insulation. That's an even two inches with room on either side for the liquid line and wires. The hardest part will be the bend into and out of the sleeve, and if it comes to it, the insulation does have some give and hopefully it does give more than the drain line or I'll have to take your suggestion. Whatever it is, I looked long and hard for a larger wall sleeve and finally found a rectangular one today...a bit too late. So lets see if I can make do with this.

On the copper pipe, that's a good idea if you're connecting direct, but if you are using a manifold to draw vacuum on both sides of the system (recommended), all three hoses should be capable of sustaining ultra low vacuums if you plan to leave it overnight to monitor for stable vacuum. I guess if you pressure test with nitrogen and it holds all you care about is getting to 200 microns and not necessarily about staying there, in which case hose permeability is not an issue?

If you look at the way a flare connection is assembled, it's design
allows for a vacuum to really suck the tubing flare down on the cone.
That makes for a very tight seal.

While testing with my test line-set, during my repair project,
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...html#post16037

I vacuumed out the line-set many times (with both Sanyo valves closed) and removed the test line-set later.
A few times, when I loosened the 5/8" flare nut, there was no hiss of air rushing in.
I had to pull the 5/8" tube off the cone, before the air rushed in..

That tells me that long duration vacuum testing on a line set that can get down under 200 microns is not very useful.
IMHO, If you can get down to <200 and maintain that with the pump running, 10 or 20 minutes (during warm weather)
should remove all the moisture from the line set.

So, looking at the flare connection design with 400 PSI of nitrogen inside the line set,
then you need tight flare nuts! That nut becomes very important.
The lack of any small defect on the mating face of the flare or cone become very important.

The nitrogen pressure test is more important! It simulates real world conditions. Pressure inside the line-set.

My only small worry is putting too much pressure in the line set, which might possibly
force nitrogen into one of the closed valves and into the refrigerant.

The nitrogen is dry and essentially inert.

-AC_Hacker