#2 Sanyo 24KHS72 AC/HP Install Project (Oct 2011)
 

The goal of this project is to install the repaired Sanyo outdoor unit,
using a new indoor unit ($375.17 & arriving soon) in my (hard to heat) Den.

I'm not sure the money invested in this project won't be wasted,
since the POE lubricant and filter in the leaky outdoor unit may
have suffered too much damage/deterioration during the time
before the pinhole was repaired.

If things do go bad, and I do burn up the compressor, I will still have
almost a full set of spare parts for the existing system. :cool:

One idea I've been thinking about is to clean out the system using
an outboard drier-filter. Comments welcome.


One different aspect of this install, is the location of the indoor unit.
Instead of the recommend location near the ceiling, this one is going to be about 19" off the floor.
This location is due to lack of space above the windows and because this system
will be used for space heating 90% of the time.

This new system might not be used except during times when the
outdoor temperatures are consistently below 25F.
The duty cycle (off/on) should be low, since the unit is way over-sized for the room.
And, it will likely only be used during times when we are using the den,
for watching TV or entertaining & etc.


IMHO, the main reason that mini-splits are installed up high on the wall,
is because that's where the hot air is located during the summer.
That high location is optimal for cooling..

My goal is to heat up cold air, that accumulates down on the floor.. :D

Stay tuned.. There's a chance, this might actually work!

Cheers,
Rich

Woo, this'll be a fun one to watch. I'm glad to see you putting the 'bad' outdoor unit back to work!

Day 1
 

Well, I'm a little nervous-nelly on this one.. The UPS guy just dropped off a dirty box..

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...0slot/R001.jpg

Despite the dents and crinkles, it looks okay inside. Well packaged.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...0slot/R002.jpg

There is a screw holding the mounting plate in place. Remove it for inspection (toss it later).
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...0slot/R003.jpg

Wow, this was made in April 2011.. Not too old.. Maybe better firmware?
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...0slot/R006.jpg

Got the spot picked out already..
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...slot/R005e.jpg

I was not expecting this to arrive for weeks.. Boston Heating Supply Dot Com is very fast, or they have a warehouse next to the local UPS depot..

Dang, I hope that 120AC outlet isn't going to be right under where I want to drop the line-set etc!!

I'm thinking of a PVC pipe going down through the floor into the great outdoors.

Oh No!! Notice where the curtain is hanging??
I don't know why I failed to see that long curtain as a problem.
It would be hanging down on the air-input grill..
When it's unhooked, (to close it) it would hang even lower.. And cause blockage.. :(
My wife is not liking my idea to chop 10" off the bottom of one curtain..
(I really don't think anyone would notice).. :p

So, now we are considering the area behind the guitar, just below that window frame.
That window has some ornamental glass swinging windows in it.
It's basically the hole that used to be the kitchen window-over-the-sink.

I kinda like the idea, since it is more out of the way there.
That's not a foot-traffic area.

~~
Went to Lowes and HD today. Got all the parts for the power supply and
the 1/2" water-tight conduit and parts needed to feed the 230vac and data line into the indoor unit.
I will be replacing a rusty old 230AC outlet on the back of the house with a standard, air conditioner disconnect box.
60 Amp 120/240-Volt 14,400-Watt Non-Fused Air Conditioning Disconnect-DPU222RP at The Home Depot
Looks like a pretty good one.(A bit larger than the other one).
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pro...73693c_300.jpg

Also picked up a Watts 1/4" flare nut, so I can install a drier-filter in my little test loop.
Before final install, I want to clean up any particles and acids that might be riding around in the R410A.
I'm hoping this will help avoid compressor wear, or explosion etc. :D

Since this is a low-fuss install, I don't plan on using a big cement slab like before.
This time, I'm going to hack a mount out of old 4x4s. I plan to make an
'H' frame (with two cross-bars) out of four old left-over deck timbers.
I picked up four of these things to tie them together.
4x4 Deck Post Tie-DPT7Z at The Home Depot
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pro...47566b_300.jpg

We cleaned a bunch of vegetation out of the new Sanyo location.
It's a good spot, a zero foot traffic area. :cool:

When the system is up and actually working for a few weeks,
I'll likely build another snow shed roof for this one..
Maybe make it extra tough, since roof snow and gutter ice could be dropping in..

Sanyo KHS2472 Base
 

Building the base. Added some steel carry bars.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1.../baseframe.jpg

Added some brown spray paint.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1.../basepaint.jpg

Alien taking a break on the Sanyo base.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...lot/baseMe.jpg

New box in place..
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1.../baselevel.jpg
This actually within 1 degree of being level.. It just looks 15 deg off.. :p

IDU Details
 

IDU = InDoor Unit. ODU=OutDoor Unit.

Found a brass fitting at Lowes, to take care of the too short condensation line.
Also got 4 feet of plastic hose with 1/4" ID to drain the water out, under the den.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...lot/IDhose.jpg

The fitting wouldn't screw in, until adding some Teflon tape.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...slot/IDcon.jpg
The end of the (black) hose was narrow, so I cut 1/8" off with my pocket knife. :p


Had to cut out the bottom access hole with a small saw.
Since the lines are not going into a hole in the wall, but down the the wall (indoors).
I plan to cover them with some plastic gutter.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ot/IDsawed.jpg


Sanyo does not provide a cable clamp with this IDU. You have to buy your own.
Don't put it in backwards, like I did this one..
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...Dbackwards.jpg

The plate is removable with one screw. When you feed it the cable from the back,
get the enough wire out and tighten up the clamp and re-install the plate.
If you do as shown, the plastic safety cover won't close all the way..

~~~
I was worried about running into 2x4s in the floor when drilling the 3" hole.
So this morning, I made a 1/4" x 13" drill bit and made a test hole right next to the baseboard. No problems found.
It seems like there is about 12" of air space between the 1/2" plywood covering the top and bottom of the den floor.
There is the plywood floor (with pad & carpet covering it), the studs and then a plywood bottom cover.
(Which I covered in pink foam insulation a few years ago).
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...NCL/insul2.jpg
I'm not sure if the hole saw pocket is deep enough for that 4" foam..

On Monday, I want to drill the 3" floor hole and hang the IDU on the wall.
Maybe I'll drag the ODU out of the garage and try to lift in up on the stand.. :D (119 pounds)!

You might want to air seal those foam boards Xringer. Last winter I was working on a house that had the same kind of thing done to it with polyiso and it made a dramatic difference when we air sealed those boards.

Eagerly waiting to see how this project turns out!

Those are Tongue & Groove panels with glue/sealant on the plywood side and in the T&G.
They were just about a perfect fit. There aren't any real cracks or openings where I could inject sealant.
I can't figure out how I could get an 'air seal' without covering the whole bottom with plastic..

When I probed around between the floor and the sub-floor, I was amazed
how roomy it is down there. My guess is there is about 4" of R-11 with foil,
topped off with 8" of air space..

One idea that occurred to me was cutting a bunch of holes in the floor,
and filling up all that dead air space with blown in insulation..
Maybe when we replace the carpet.?. That's on the list..
It was laid in June 1989.. 22 years, 4 months ago, but still looks pretty good.. :confused:

You could just tape the seams with Tyvek tape.

Xringer,

Great photos, however you might want to crop (and/or resize) your photos.

Very few of the photos have essential details that warrant large photos.

The page takes a long time to load...

-AC_Hacker

Camera dying..
 

My old camera has problems, so I'm using my wife's little Nikon CoolPix 5600.
I set it to PC picture mode and the pics don't look big in their natural resolution on my old 1280x1024 LCD..

I do crop almost every picture I post. Since I'm not too accurate with
cameras anymore. I have to chop off all the stuff that I did not intend
to be in the picture.. :o

Anyways, sorry about the slow loading time for today's pics, I've already cropped them etc..

I didn't sleep much last night, and I'm really starting to feel it, on this (Hot) afternoon.
Worked on the Sanyo a few hours today and will post after I eat and take a nap..

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...10breakman.jpg

Cheers,
Rich

Warning large pic files
 

Last night, I decided to try to bend the pig tails downwards.. Not an easy job.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...t/10bentLS.jpg

I did not like the two lines touching each other. So, I took some scrap and made a little partition between them.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...llinserted.jpg

Started drilling right after an early breakfast. 3/4" plywood on top, 1/2" plywood sub-floor and a few inches of foam. Easy going.
Just had to push some insulation out of the way.
Insulation looked thicker. It might be 2 layers of paper-backed R-11.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...10drilling.jpg

Hung the wall mounting plate. Got it level to 1/2 degree. :rolleyes:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...0wallmount.jpg

Wife helped me hang the IDU.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...t/10hungit.jpg

The wiring terminals. 4 conductors. A 230V pair, 1 comm line and 1 chassis ground.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...nnectedIDU.jpg

Uncovered.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...0uncovered.jpg

Bolted down and wired up the ODU.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...powercheck.jpg

I powered up the system with the remote in 'Fan' mode. No smoke.
Fan mode worked okay.

Inside Unit Location...
 

I'm interested how your inside unit location works for you.

I didn't consider locations that were lower than head high, because I assumed that the routines controlling the fan were set for the inside unit being higher on the wall.

I also assumed that the inside units blow cold air higher in the room, and blows warm air lower in the room, to promote a more homogeneous air temperature.

-AC_Hacker

Could you give us more information on your wiring? Did you apply for a permit for this one?

You're making this look too easy!

The wiring is simple. Just need 230 and a ground to the ODU, and 4 wires into the IDU.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...r/NCL/F105.jpg

That switch might be required in some areas. The red line (#3) is the serial data link between the two units.

The pull-out disconnect in the wall box breaks both L1(5) & L2(6) to the ODU.
That also removes all power from the IDU too.


I already had an old 230 outlet in place, all I had to do was replace the old box with a disconnect box.
Home owners (in my town) are allowed to replace existing lighting fixtures and outlets etc without a permit.
At least that's what the city inspector told me 22 years ago. He said they want to inspect any 'new' wiring you do..

This install was going to be lower, but we changed the location to an inside wall.

When I'm sitting in my favorite living room chair (right under install #1),
I'm not too crazy about the warm air blowing right down on top of my head.
So, we mostly use the manual settings to get what 'feels' best.

In the den, I expect that a manual setting of slightly downwards will send
heat to the floor, near the center of the room.
I expect there will be a circular flow to the end of the room (sliding glass door),
up to the ceiling and back towards the unit. which will be pulling air down into it's top air-input grate.

That air-input grate is 40" off the floor. Which means, it's going to be pulling in more cold air,
because it's down lower. So logically, it's going to be heating more cold air.

If the on-board thermostat sensor is enabled, the system should heat
up just about all the air in the room, trying to reach set-point.

A high location is perfect for the Cool Only version.. But our Sanyo is mainly for heating. :D

Since this is only an 18'x16' room, this system should provide quick heating,
and be able to hold the room at 22C using minimal power.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1.../9784_9784.jpg

If this unit fails, I plan to replace it with a new 9,000 BTUh system..
The replacement will be installed in the exact same location.

Cheers,
Rich

Deliveries today, but it's been raining all day.. Not a good day for crawling under the Den..

The filter came today. (Ordered on Oct 6, 2011). Everyone took the holiday?
It looks un-used (caps on tight), and ready to clean any water and crud out of the R410A in the system.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...lot/filter.jpg


These Copper-Aluminum lines aren't what I expected. I figured it was some new alloy..
But, it's copper on the ends, bonded to aluminum tubing.
This stuff was a lot easier to un-roll than the old solid copper line set.
I can't see under the insulation, but it looks like all the aluminum might be covered in heat shrink..
Links


http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ot/joint-1.jpg

Comes with pressure testing data sheet. Burst is 1,880 PSI and working is 900 PSI.
Made by the Woer heat shrink folks in China.

Rolling out 15' on the floor makes it look pretty short.
When I made my plans, the indoor mounting location wasn't very far away from the outdoor unit.
After ordering the 15' line set, the curtains got in the way and now,
15 feet might be a tad short.. I may need a line-set stretcher!

It looks like the weekend is going to be rainless.. So maybe I can finish this install.. ;)

Day 5
 

After raining Thursday & Friday, the sun came out this morning. (for a while)!

I was sure the 15' line-set was going to be too short, so I moved the ODU 16" left.
Installing the line-set went faster than expected, since the aluminum tube bends pretty easily.
I put in the filter-drier, so we could clean out the system right after vacuuming.

When I removed the shipping cap on the 5/8" valve (it caps the line-set connection),
I got a small puff of gas, indicating there was a small amount of valve leakage.
(From inside the ODU to the line-set, with the valve closed).

This caused me to do two things differently.
1. Pressure testing cut to 1/2 hour at 300 PSI.
2. Not attempting to achieve 200 microns of vacuum. (Since the R410A leak would screw it up).



http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...slot/ptest.jpg

It must have been getting warmer outdoors, because the nitrogen pressure increased from 300 to 305 PSI.

The vacuum pump ran for over an hour before getting down to 500 microns.
I could shut off the pump for 5 minutes and would see very little change.
When I tried to get down to 400, it would get close then bubble back up 450-490 microns.
It was kinda erratic. I assumed this was due to R410A leaking past the large valve.
My R410A certified HVAC buddy said I was probably right.

So when it dipped down near 400, we released the refrigerant and shut the service port cut-off.
(And shut off the vac pump).

I connected the T-Run jumper and we got a smooth two hour cooling run.
I wanted to run it longer, but my HVAC Dude wanted to go home.
Maybe, the filter picked up any floating junk and dried out any H2O
that may have been in the charge. I think longer would have been better.

This pic is a video, click on it to play it..
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...h_cleaning.jpg


During this test, line set (and IDU) temperatures dropped to -20 F..

After the we did the pump-down (worked perfectly again).
Removed the dirty filter. Re-vacuuming was much quicker this time.
There must have been a lot of moisture in the system, during the first vac.
We got the same bubbling vac level at 450-490 microns again.
We flooded the line-set and I removed the T-run Jumper, re-connected
the 4-way valve and buttoned up the box, as it started to rain again!! :mad:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...2Installed.jpg

Heating and cooling functions seem normal. No sign of trouble so far.

This thing might actually work!!! :D

Cheers,
Rich

It was nice and cool in the Den this morning, so I fired up Sanyo #2.
(07:35 48.5 °F outdoors).

The room warmed right up in about 10 minutes.
I noticed it was much more comfortable within about 5 minutes.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...0slot/R047.jpg


Dang, I'm getting up way too early these days. Power use normal.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...0slot/R050.jpg

Measuring R410A going into the IDU.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...0slot/R049.jpg

The system is about 1 pound low on refrigerant, but seems to be working
okay under mild weather conditions..

Why is it low?

I'm pretty excited to see this all working out.

If you are talking about the low power usage, 460w is normal for these units.
I turned it on and clicked the set-point up 1 deg C above room temp.
It came on and after about 30 seconds the power started to increase.
About 10 watts every 2 or 3 seconds. After hitting a peak of 1400w,
it started stepping down.. About 10 watts every 2 or 3 seconds,
unit it got to 460w, where it sat, until the room got warmer.
Normal for these units
~~~

If you are asking about the IDU location, (close to the floor)
then you should go back to page 1 and read my first post. (The last half). :)

So far, it seems like mounting the IDU down low works pretty well for heating.
I like being able to aim the warm air right at the floor in the center of the room.

I also really like this location, because I can hardly hear it running.
When it's using under 500w, it's so quite, I can hear the TV without any problem.
The stupid refrigerator in the kitchen makes more noise than the Sanyos.
(You can just see the fridge, behind the hinge of the French door above).

Well... no. I meant the 1 pound of gas.

But thanks for the break down of the power usage any how!

I just went back and re-read my own post! Then realized what you mean! (Hey, I'm old)!

Yeah, they come with 4.3 pounds, and we only added 3.3 pounds after the repair.
The manual says you have to remove some, if you run a short line-set. *
At the time, I was planing to make a short Test loop to simulate a line-set.
But due to mislabeled tubing, I ended up with a really short 1/4" test loop.
So, I decided we should hold back on filling it all the way up..

Only later, did I decide to buy a brand new IDU and a 15' line set.

*Note:
This model is loaded for 33 feet of line set. For each foot you add to the length,
you have to add 0.27 oz of R410A.
Likewise, if you go under 33 feet (I assume).
33-15=18 x .27 is only about 5 oz.. So, we need to carefully add 11 oz..?.

So, we have decided to try running it with 3.3 pounds
for a while to see how it does, my HVAC guy thinks it's safe..
(Not really a mini-split guy). I'm not sure, since I'm not schooled on the effects of running low refer..

When we ran the T-run mode to filter out any impurities, etc
the IDU and the line set got down to -20 F.

To me, that seems like the system is really working pretty good.

When heating on a really cold day, the outdoor coil has to be colder than
the outdoor air, so it can pick up it's heat. And -20F is indeed pretty cold.. :D
(At least to me)..

OK, I see.
I've gotta say that since I first found you other Sanyo thread (and read it cover to cover on Christmas day last year) what concerns me the most is how to determine how much gas is needed.

Well, since reading the pressure doesn't really tell me a lot about Sanyo #1,
I'm not sure how else to tell what weight charge is needed, except by testing.

If #2 does not do cooling and heating as well as #1 does, we can try adding more R410A.

It might not be easy find the sweet spot.
When testing the repair, I used a short 1/4" test loop with something
around 20-22 oz (or about 1.3 pounds) of R410A, and it worked pretty well.

Later, when another 2 full pounds was added (measured), the system pressures and function seemed the same.
So, it might be hard to say if there is enough refrigerant in there,
without seeing how well it preforms on really cold days.. Or hot days in summer.. :)

It's an easy thing to add a little R410A to a system, but I'd have to get
someone over here with a recovery machine to remove R410A from the unit.
Something that I would like to avoid if at all possible.

One other thing that I would like to point out..
If it wasn't for the crazy power hogging when large temperature changes are called for, these things would be prefect..

I have yet to see the repaired system with it's new IDU go nuts and become a power hog.
If it does, my DIY power limiter will reset it at 10A (2.4kw).
Which I expect to see after defrost cycles this winter..

I'm not sure, but I think the power problem is a bug in the control program.
Not with the plumbing.

I eagerly wait to see.



There has to be some concise formula to follow for the charge. Where is it? I can't help but suspect that the power issues you have seen are due to an incorrect charge since everything else you have done on the other unit seems to have gone above and beyond. If you think it is indeed an FW problem have you contacted Sanyo about it? I'm sure they have more than a few of these in the field and should have more than one report of this.

Mid night power testing
 

Midnight is a good time to test!
I just decided to do some late night testing on the newly installed Sanyo #2.
The den was already at 21C when I turned on the Sanyo. So, nothing happened.
After waiting for a few minutes, I clicked it up to 22.
It started stepping up in power, but a little faster than I expected.
At around 1400 watts, it topped out and started back down. (As expected).

But when it hit 1000, I clicked up 23 C. Power started climbing again.
it stepped up to about 1500 watts and started back down hill.
I waited about 10 second until it got back down to 1kw, and pushed it up to 24C (75.2F).
This was happening faster than usual, I didn't know what to expect.
And, this time I was fascinated to see it pause at 2kw and start to fall back.

So, this new system seems to be better behaved than old #1..
Tomorrow, I plan to try bring it up from a cold start, up 8 degrees.
If it can handle that and stay at that 2kw peak, I'll be a happy old dude.
That would mean we could use the programmable timer function
and have it come on early in the AM, (Unattended).. Even if it was cold..

~~~~~~~~

9:40AM 8 deg call test.

We used #2 Sanyo this morning to take the chill out. It's 57F outdoor right now.
Sanyo #2 was running at idle, with the room at 21C before starting the test.

With the built-in thermostat enabled (Remote sensor not used), I set it to 28C. (82.4F).
The power stepping looked the same, and within 4 or 5 minutes, it was using over 2kw.
But, at 2370 watts, it slowed and stopped increasing. It settled down to 2350w
and stayed there for about 5 minutes, before slowly stepping back down under 2000w.
When I could see it was stabilizing again at around 700w, I ended the test.

So, is seems like Sanyo #2 is much more stable than old Sanyo #1.
Is it because #2 is lower on refrigerant? Or, does the new IDU have better firmware.?.

Once the cold weather (under 20F) sets in, I'll repeat this test.
Otherwise, I'll never know if my automatic 10A limit breaker is working or not!

Hey, wait a sec! 2370 watts is 9.7A at 244 Volts! Almost 10A!
Maybe the TED was reading a bit low.?. And Maybe the 10A DIY breaker started
Regulating the power, without causing a reset.?.
If the SSR was triggering off for only 2 or 3 AC cycles, that could have
throttled the power back at 10A, slightly lowering the DC to the motors..

The current flow sensor that I installed inside Sanyo #2 ODU might not have
the same hysteresis as the sensor used on Sanyo #1..
(It's a different brand).

Dang, too many variables for my old brain.. I guess this is what makes
the DIY hobby more interesting than sitting behind a desk all day.. :D

Cheers,
Rich

7:00 AM test?
 

At 7:00 AM on a Sunday morning, the last thing I wanted to hear was a TED alarm beeping.
But, it was almost time to get up anyways. :rolleyes:

I figured it was another over-voltage alarm, but it wasn't. It was a max power alarm.

Now that I'm using the TED to monitor dual Sanyo ASHPs,
I should have re-programmed the TED's max KW alarm a little higher..Like 4KW maybe? :o

Last night, I set the timer on Sanyo #2, for 6:50AM so the den would be
nice and toasty when we got up. (Sanyo #1 was on overnight at 19C).
It worked very well before, when it was not so cool outdoors.
This morning, it was down to 35F (@99%H & 34F DP) outdoors.

There was a little frost on the deck, and water under the outdoor units.
I'm not sure, but the Sanyo #2 may have been in a defrost cycle when the TED alarm sounded.

Anyways, I turned down Sanyo #1 (main house) and did some testing on Sanyo #2.
Not so tolerant anymore. It will exceed 2.4kW if more than 2 deg C of change is requested.
Of course, it did some self-Re-sets* (auto-breaker is working fine),
making me understand that 35F means the Sanyo #2 has to be carefully
adjusted, one deg at a time, to avoid big power use surges.

*Note:
A couple of the auto-breaker resets were very clean full resets, with the system
re-starting again at low wattage, as if there was a grid failure.
But, a couple of other auto-breaker resets were just a system stall.
A 1/2 second hesitation in IDU fan speed before recovering.
I think this type of Stall & Recovery is probably not good for the compressor.
I'll need to think about hacking the Transistor switch, so full resets always occur.


I did a comparison between both units. When operating at the same
indoor room temp, IDU coil temp and fan speed, they both used about the same amount of power.
So, at least in this temperature range (mid 30s F) the new install seems
to working about the same as the old unit.. :cool:

I plan to perform this same comparison when it gets down to the 20s F.
That might be when we might add another 1/2 pound of R410A to #2.

Cheers,
Rich

Yesterday we went to Lowes to get some stuff and I found some 2x3" PVC downspout.
Cut it to size and slit down the back with a knife. It pops right on.
Genova Plumbing, Vinyl Gutters,
This stuff might be pretty good for DIY outdoors line-set covers. (They have 3" x 4" sizes too).
Might save about 60% over the stuff I used on Sanyo #1. But, it would not look as neat. :)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...t/downpout.jpg

My wife wanted the line-set going right into the wall, like Sanyo #1. But, that was impossible with this interior wall,
since there was no easy way to bring in down into the basement and then back outside.
Five 90deg bends = a longer line-set. Way too much work. :p

It's costing us some serious bucks to heat the Den (& the house) this winter.
Sanyo#2 has been running the same hours as Sanyo#1 in the LR.
It's been getting a little colder each week (but it's still warmer than last year).

We have been using the Den every day and have kept the temperature setting
the same as the house. 21C during the day and 19 or 20 at night time.

TED says 8 days left in the billing cycle.
271 kWh used(by both Sanyos) and 379 kWh ($82) projected for the month.

About 12.63 kWh per day is like using 526.4 watts 24/7 on average.

Since the average temperature during this billing cycle (so far) has been 42 °F,
my cold-weather-power use forecast, is for using 600 to 800 watts on ave.
Around 17 kWh per day will push us over 500 kWh during the next billing cycle (or two).

The good news is, our base NStar rate should be back in effect (next cycle),
and will cut our the cost per kWh. 7.306 cents, instead of Dominion's 12.2 cents! 40% off? Not really.
Our total cost (with taxes & fees) was 21.6 cents per kwh..
Next cycle, we should save about $25 on heating cost.



The other good news is, our oil tank is still pretty full.
A lady we know, just paid $750 for about 192 gallons of oil.

If that 192 gallons lasted her one month, then she paid 9x more than we will, using ASHPs..:eek:

#2 Fuel Oil = 140,000 BTU / gal

Her fuel oil = (140,000 * 192) BTU @ $750

= 26,880,000 BTU / $750
= 35,840 BTU / $1 (assume 100% eff.)
= 23,296 BTU / $1 (assume 65% eff.)
= $1 / 23,296 BTU (assume 65% eff.)

Your electricity = $0.216 / KW-h

= $0.216 / 3,412 BTU/hr (assume COP = 1)
= $0.216 / 8,530 BTU/hr (assume COP = 2.5)
= $1 / 39,491 BTU/hr (assume COP = 2.5)

She is definitely paying more per BTU to heat her place, but 9x is leaving something very fundamental out of the comparison.

You might want to either tell her that she needs to close her windows in the winter, or else you need to check your assumptions.

-AC_Hacker

That's why I said "If that 192 gallons lasted her one month".
I really don't know how many days have passed since her last fill-up..
But, if it was just a month, that's not too good.

I've seen her home and it's an old two story building.
Just guessing, but it's not likely there is much insulation installed.
The houses on that street look a lot older than my 1956 house.


"An average home with a 275 gallon heating oil tank (250 usable gallons) will use 5-6 gallons per day in January giving the tank approximately 41 days of storage."
Home Propane Costs Buffalo | Home Heating Oil Prices Rochester

192 gallons @ 6 gpd is 32 days of cold weather use..

OK, now I get it... What you are actually saying that in one month the old lady (average home) is using:

one month oil = 26,880,000 BTU (total heat content)

one month oil = 17,472,000 BTU (@ 65% eff)

and in one month you are using:

one month heat pump = 3,232,870 BTU (@ COP 2.5)

So it looks like the old lady is suffering an 5.4 to 1 thermal disadvantage just because of the house she is living in... That is the real story here... It has to do with insulation and size of heated space.

Because if the old lady used the same kind of Sanyos as you use, she would need 11 of them to heat her place...

Then, on top of that, you are paying 59 cents for every BTU that the old lady is paying 1 dollar for... If the old lady got the 11 Sanyos, it would slash her heating bill to $487.50.

Seems like a lot to me, since I'm paying about $20 per month.

Xringer, have you thought that you should really do a thermal intervention on the old lady?

I mean, would you be able to forgive yourself if she was found in the basement of her low R-value house, huddled next to the empty oil tank, frozen to death?

Maybe she could telephone Hugo Chavez and ask him for some cheap oil. It's pretty clear that our government really doesn't care.

I think insulation is the key.

-AC_Hacker

I think most of the houses on my street need an intervention..
Almost all were built in 1956, when the first wall and attic insulation was being used.
(Forced requirement for VA home loans, I think).
The "Insulation" in these homes consisted of a silver foil looking paper batten (1/4" thick)
between the studs, with a light sprinkling of some kind of paper pulp stuff inside.
I wonder if it was even an R2...


It was a very hot August (1973) when we moved in an discovered the ceiling actually felt hot to the touch!
I could feel the radian heat on the top of my head(and I still had hair then)!

There was no pull-down stairs, and I had to unroll and fold the foil-backed fiberglass insulation in half,
so I could pull it up into the attic, though the tiny hatch in the ceiling of a closet.

It was hot working up there. During one break, I reached up to feel the
ceiling with both hands, I could easily tell exactly where I had already insulated.
Once finished, the summer felt much nicer in our new home in the burbs..
The difference was amazing! :D

Since then, I've added two more layers up there. Well worth the parts-n-labor..

Xringer, what do you set your Sanyo remote to achieve the 21C temperature?

Poleikleng

I just set the remote to operate in Celsius mode and select 21C.. :)

The C-F button is located at the center bottom (under the cover).

http://remotes.com/remote_images/sma...rcs4vpis4u.jpg


I 'think' the remote operates in the Celsius mode internally.
IMHO, when you select Fahrenheit, it just does a rough translation to the nearest rounded off Fahrenheit number.

Got cold this morning.. And #2 failed.?.
 

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1326637807
Climatological Data

Left both units at 20C at midnight(when it was 16.7 °F outside), and the house was still at 20C at 6AM.(5.6 °F outdoors).
Still had warm air from both units (~80-85F).

7:00AM it was 4.7 °F and 10.7 kWh had been used. Averaging 1.53 KW per hour since midnight.
7:30AM 4.5 °F & 12.0 kWh
8:00AM 5.0 °F & 12.9 kWh

However, between 7 & 8AM, power use had increased to a 2.2 kWh rate. Why so much?

8:30AM 5.8 °F & Sanyo#2 slowed w/ a few LED flashes it went idle..
The Den had dropped to 19C.

I cycled the power off, inspected the ODU. Everything looked fine.
Re-powered Sanyo#2 and had normal operation.

BUT, the remote temp display stayed at 19C.
After setting for 21C, the temperature came up okay. (to 21).

I think the Den is responding 'slower', because of my actions.
When the sun started to show up at 7AM, I opened the two east side window curtains.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...0slot/z219.jpg

I also opened the north-side sliding glass door curtains (abt 60%).
These are thermal curtains, and they do help insulate the room from heat loss.

So, I suspect that Sanyo#2 could not keep with the loss at 5.0 °F..?.
Hence the 19C room temp.. (50 sq feet of windows now exposed).

Sanyo#2 may have been using extra power, trying to keep up.
If the remote issued a call for more heat, while #2 was already
using near max power, a small power surge might have put it
over the 10A setting of the current limiter..
Which caused a quick hiccup re-set to occur..?.
(The short LED flash cycle that I saw).?.

Once I add the 555 timer hack http://ecorenovator.org/forum/applia...html#post19088
to it's power-limiter, we should be able to clearly see when there has been a reset..

I call it my 555 plan.. ;) And it will be implemented during the next mild day!

Xringer,

7:15 am, 6.4 F degrees outside temperature, 64.2 F degrees inside, air from the inside air handler was 121 F degrees. We did experience a defrost cycle later in the morning, inside temperature dropped from 65.1 F to 64 F degrees during this cycle.

We did use our upstairs unit last night, set the remote for 62 F degrees, anything higher the bedroom would have been too warm.

Poleikleng

121 deg F is pretty warm.. Sounds like those things are working extremely well..

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...empdaycomp.jpg

Looking at that dew-point line, means your coil had to be around
-10 deg F to accumulate frost.?. That's cool to say the least..
I just ran out and checked underneath both my ODUs and there isn't a trace of ice.
So, our coils never got below the dew-point temp..

I'm glad I picked up some extra space heaters yesterday at HomeDepot,
since the forecast for Monday morning is for below Zero at dawn.

I hope to get to bed early tonight, so when my 2.0 deg F alarm goes off,
I'll be ready to get up and watch all the gauges.. :D


This morning, the dip under 5.0 °F, lasted from 6:30 until 8:00..
Maybe if it's 1.5 hours tomorrow morning, I'll skate by without burning any oil..?.
I now have 3 ceramic and 1 oil-filled space heater..
At 900watt each, (medium power setting) that's 2.700 watts. (9213 BTUh)..
If I have to burn up 4 or 5 extra KWh, no big deal.. Compared to burning Black Gold! :eek: