thin film vs poly/mono crystal price per watt

Daox · 10-28-10, 09:04 AM

I moved this thread as it was getting off topic in another thread:

I have yet to see "cheap" thin film panels. Almost all the ones I've seen have not beaten poly or mono crystal panels in $/w.

AC_Hacker · 10-28-10, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox

Not to go too far off topic, but I have yet to see "cheap" thin film panels. Almost all the ones I've seen have not beaten poly or mono crystal panels in $/w.

Have you seen this?

...and this is also a useful resource.

-AC_Hacker

Xringer · 10-28-10, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox

Not to go too far off topic, but I have yet to see "cheap" thin film panels. Almost all the ones I've seen have not beaten poly or mono crystal panels in $/w.

The thin film panels I was looking at on the DMsolar site were pretty well priced, compared to standard panels..
However, they are about 20% larger and heavier Per watt.

I posted some info that I located on some thin-film,
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/solar-...nel-specs.html

This info came off-line awhile back, and is subject to error or changes by the maker..

Search on "KANEKA-U-EA-ficha-EN.pdf" to find the Euro specs..

I think these type of panels on a solid ground mount could work very well as a hot water pre-heater power source..
And, the pay-back could be pretty fast, if you are currently using fuel oil to heat your hot water..
(Or maybe any fuel that might suddenly cost more in the coming years)..

Daox · 10-28-10, 10:10 AM

I guess I was more so looking at lower wattage panels (20-30W range) and wanting them to be flexible.

Xringer · 10-28-10, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox

I guess I was more so looking at lower wattage panels (20-30W range) and wanting them to be flexible.

The smaller panels cost more per-watt.. I've seen 30w poly PV on Ebay for 60 to 90 bucks..
But of course you get killed on the shipping..

I've never looked for small thin-film..

5W 5 Watt 18v Thin Film Solar Panel RV Battery Charger - eBay (item 180576872936 end time Nov-19-10 01:05:38 PST)

Wow! $40 for 5w! Not too good.. My first 10w poly was $25 shipped (IIRC).

Vern2 · 12-31-10, 11:56 AM

Just some info on Amorous (spelling) panels.

Poly and mono contain cells so electrons have to move from cell to cell. The problem with that is if you have a shadow on one cell, electrons will not go through that cell. With amorous technology a panel is one big cell, not 72 or more. The good thing about this is, shadows do not block electrons, so with shadows passing across this type of panel you get more productivity then poly or mono. BUT here's the rub. I takes twise the surface area of amorous to equal a poly or mono panel. Unless you have a shadow problem poly or mono give you twise the production and half the space required to mount them.

Amorous Latton (spelling) for without shape. If your building is covered with Amorous material (paint, shingles, you name it) there's no other advantage with this technology, except shadows.

Amorous is very cheap to make. It is sprayed onto a stainless steel foil, with glue backing, peal and stick. The factories building these panels are recouping there investments and the cost will drop like a rock, when new factories come on line.

Also there is no long time (15 years) of any track record on how long they will last. Mono has been around sence the 1950s. The track record is this, 1% a year loss up to 20 years and it slows down to very little loss after that.

Vern2 · 12-31-10, 12:56 PM

Xringer,
I think I've read that you have a few solar panels. You talk about charging something for your wife.

Here's my take on any type of charging. Don't do it unless your off grid.

Here's my take on the use of solar panels. Solar planels are totally for reducing your electric bill. Unless your trying to keep the chickens warm or some novel idea like that, that will never make money. The loss of converting DC to AC at a charger is 25% of your solar DC productivity. Now to change it from Batteries to AC, another 25%, a loss of 50%. If you skip one or both of these conversions you home free, well almost.

My vision... Install your panels in series to start with. Run the DC wire to an inverter, of course it's not that simple. Inverters will take from 14 to 600 volts. For a small inverter that converts DC to 120v 60 cyc, just plug it into an outlet. Every house has a baseline use of electricity and that's what your shooting to reduce. The electrons generated will be used by your house first. Any more generation will turn your meter backward. I have a smart meter on my house and it goes backward. Now your reducing consumption and lowering electric bill. I hope you can follow. More panels bigger inverter next. Buy an inverter you can grow into, don't buy a square wave inverter, they won't run any electronics. Of course if you go to big, that takes an agreement with the power company called a grid tie system. You will be going over the 240v single phase and a lot of local regulations start to apply. You can use a Kill-o-watt device to see how many watts your are generating.

My 2 cents.

strider3700 · 12-31-10, 01:07 PM

I will add that the reason I have solar panels is entirely for disaster preparation. Even 45watts of solar and a decent battery bank with a modest inverter will go a hell of a long way in the event of the grid going down for days/weeks.

I fully agree I'll never make money off of them up here. My electric rate is just too low. Payback periods on every system I've ever looked at is 30-40 years in my area. Add in replacement of failed components and it's just not a money maker.

Xringer · 12-31-10, 02:13 PM

I'm in the same boat. It's just back-up.
Even at 21 cents per kWh, it's still too cheap to start messing
with grid tied inverters & 3 or 4 kW of PV..

Once grid power gets up over 50 cents per kWh, and PV drops under $1 per watt.
Maybe I'll look at it again..

But, I'm 65 next month and it's unlikely I'll ever see anything 'break-even',
no matter how sweet the deal is..

I actually don't even need a PV+battery back-up system.
But, I want one because, in case of a short grid failure, I can use batteries
(and PV if the sun is out) and avoid dragging out the 5kW gas gen.

So, if we get a 2 hour failure at 8PM, we can still have lights etc. until bedtime..

Haha! At bedtime, we can read for hours and hours under the DIY LED reading lamp..
Which btw is working very well. Every time it's sunny for a while, I check the
night light's charge controller. It's almost always in the green..

Cheers,
Rich

Vern2 · 12-31-10, 06:03 PM

You guys didn't beat me up, maybe I frequent the wrong sites. THANKS!

There is a mod I might do on my solar. The mod will include one SMA Sunny Island. Right now I have 2-5k SMA inverters. On paper, I reached the 600v breaking point, when I reach 9k production. The solar install company would not add any more panels the way it's designed. I'll change out one of the 5k inverters to a Sunny Island. Sunny Island

This is the panels I have E18. The only thing that has a better performance is on our space station. I built it for the 20% loss at the 20 year period. 40 of these

strider3700,
I think the biggest disaster that may come out way is a solar storms, maybe 2012 Dec 21.

Negatively charged partials hitting earth. And yes no power in a large area for weeks, depending on what side of the earth gets hit. Maybe it will be dark and the USA wont get hit, Will be on the DARK SIDE.

A few satellites will be neutralized.

10-28-10, 09:04 AM	#1
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	thin film vs poly/mono crystal price per watt I moved this thread as it was getting off topic in another thread: I have yet to see "cheap" thin film panels. Almost all the ones I've seen have not beaten poly or mono crystal panels in $/w. __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by Daox; 10-28-10 at 10:09 AM..

10-28-10, 10:10 AM	#4
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	I guess I was more so looking at lower wattage panels (20-30W range) and wanting them to be flexible. __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

12-31-10, 11:56 AM	#6
Vern2 Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Arizona Posts: 145 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Just some info on Amorous (spelling) panels. Poly and mono contain cells so electrons have to move from cell to cell. The problem with that is if you have a shadow on one cell, electrons will not go through that cell. With amorous technology a panel is one big cell, not 72 or more. The good thing about this is, shadows do not block electrons, so with shadows passing across this type of panel you get more productivity then poly or mono. BUT here's the rub. I takes twise the surface area of amorous to equal a poly or mono panel. Unless you have a shadow problem poly or mono give you twise the production and half the space required to mount them. Amorous Latton (spelling) for without shape. If your building is covered with Amorous material (paint, shingles, you name it) there's no other advantage with this technology, except shadows. Amorous is very cheap to make. It is sprayed onto a stainless steel foil, with glue backing, peal and stick. The factories building these panels are recouping there investments and the cost will drop like a rock, when new factories come on line. Also there is no long time (15 years) of any track record on how long they will last. Mono has been around sence the 1950s. The track record is this, 1% a year loss up to 20 years and it slows down to very little loss after that. __________________ Vern To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

12-31-10, 12:56 PM	#7
Vern2 Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Arizona Posts: 145 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Xringer, I think I've read that you have a few solar panels. You talk about charging something for your wife. Here's my take on any type of charging. Don't do it unless your off grid. Here's my take on the use of solar panels. Solar planels are totally for reducing your electric bill. Unless your trying to keep the chickens warm or some novel idea like that, that will never make money. The loss of converting DC to AC at a charger is 25% of your solar DC productivity. Now to change it from Batteries to AC, another 25%, a loss of 50%. If you skip one or both of these conversions you home free, well almost. My vision... Install your panels in series to start with. Run the DC wire to an inverter, of course it's not that simple. Inverters will take from 14 to 600 volts. For a small inverter that converts DC to 120v 60 cyc, just plug it into an outlet. Every house has a baseline use of electricity and that's what your shooting to reduce. The electrons generated will be used by your house first. Any more generation will turn your meter backward. I have a smart meter on my house and it goes backward. Now your reducing consumption and lowering electric bill. I hope you can follow. More panels bigger inverter next. Buy an inverter you can grow into, don't buy a square wave inverter, they won't run any electronics. Of course if you go to big, that takes an agreement with the power company called a grid tie system. You will be going over the 240v single phase and a lot of local regulations start to apply. You can use a Kill-o-watt device to see how many watts your are generating. My 2 cents. __________________ Vern To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

12-31-10, 06:03 PM	#10
Vern2 Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Arizona Posts: 145 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	You guys didn't beat me up, maybe I frequent the wrong sites. THANKS! There is a mod I might do on my solar. The mod will include one SMA Sunny Island. Right now I have 2-5k SMA inverters. On paper, I reached the 600v breaking point, when I reach 9k production. The solar install company would not add any more panels the way it's designed. I'll change out one of the 5k inverters to a Sunny Island. Sunny Island This is the panels I have E18. The only thing that has a better performance is on our space station. I built it for the 20% loss at the 20 year period. 40 of these strider3700, I think the biggest disaster that may come out way is a solar storms, maybe 2012 Dec 21. Negatively charged partials hitting earth. And yes no power in a large area for weeks, depending on what side of the earth gets hit. Maybe it will be dark and the USA wont get hit, Will be on the DARK SIDE. A few satellites will be neutralized. __________________ Vern To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by Vern2; 12-31-10 at 06:07 PM..

12-31-10, 01:07 PM	#8
strider3700 Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Vancouver Island BC Posts: 745 Thanks: 23 Thanked 37 Times in 30 Posts	I will add that the reason I have solar panels is entirely for disaster preparation. Even 45watts of solar and a decent battery bank with a modest inverter will go a hell of a long way in the event of the grid going down for days/weeks. I fully agree I'll never make money off of them up here. My electric rate is just too low. Payback periods on every system I've ever looked at is 30-40 years in my area. Add in replacement of failed components and it's just not a money maker.

12-31-10, 02:13 PM	#9
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	I'm in the same boat. It's just back-up. Even at 21 cents per kWh, it's still too cheap to start messing with grid tied inverters & 3 or 4 kW of PV.. Once grid power gets up over 50 cents per kWh, and PV drops under $1 per watt. Maybe I'll look at it again.. But, I'm 65 next month and it's unlikely I'll ever see anything 'break-even', no matter how sweet the deal is.. I actually don't even need a PV+battery back-up system. But, I want one because, in case of a short grid failure, I can use batteries (and PV if the sun is out) and avoid dragging out the 5kW gas gen. So, if we get a 2 hour failure at 8PM, we can still have lights etc. until bedtime.. Haha! At bedtime, we can read for hours and hours under the DIY LED reading lamp.. Which btw is working very well. Every time it's sunny for a while, I check the night light's charge controller. It's almost always in the green.. Cheers, Rich