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Old 04-13-14, 07:53 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insaneintenti0n View Post
Oh. Condensation too. You better make darn sure those interior wall units are mounted right or all that condensation will end up inside and dripping down your wall or on whatever is under the unit. And if the insulation on the copper rips, condensation IN your wall.

They're probably fine for a single room (garage) but definitely too much effort for a whole house.

You got that right on the condensation . I had a kink in the water hose i had ran down. I heard drip drip . Drip .. Went cut the hose shorter . Never been a problem since .
Now on the whole house . Since i bought it . My Kw usage hasnt went above 10 kws . And thats for everything i use in the house . Where It was a whole lot more . I did also do a whole lot of planning before hand of me buyin the mini . Figured out about how much btu per sq ft i needed and thats how i bought mine so it would run around 75 % capacity i really cant remember now. But i made sure it wouldnt be strainin .

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Old 04-14-14, 03:24 AM   #62
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The mini-split noise is the real deal and something I wish I would've known about. I run a Fuji 9RLS2, but I've seen comments on other models noting similar after I looked into it a bit more.

The inside unit is made of a giant metal 'radiator' encased in flimsy plastic; it was quite surprisingly just how cheap feeling it was. The light weight made it easy to mount - and likely produce and ship - and it doesn't look cheap once mounted. It's connected to two copper tubes.
-The radiator will 'ping' when it expands and contracts, mostly only during extreme temp swings. Sounds like the noise a submarine ping makes in movies. It may be less annoying to some, or simply they get use to it. I don't hear it too often and it was most often during very cold winter conditions.
-The plastic will also expand and contract and shift. Because it's made of many plastic pieces they 'tick' and sometimes 'crack' during this movement. This I find most annoying as it has a cheapness factor. Those with metal baseboard heating, or nearly all window A/C units or those hotel like all in one models never hear this because they are made of metal.
-The refrigerant will 'whoosh' quite noticeably too. You might remember this noise from an older fridge. The flowing noise is more noticeable when the unit ramps up or goes into defrost. I notice my unit tends to ramp up and down most during summer cooling, runs steady during winter heating, except during defrost which is a more extreme ramp up of cooling mode, and the fan is near silent then too. As it's just a plastic shell, it doesn't hide the whoosh noise at all.

All HVAC systems make noise, so it's more getting used to the differences, or learning of them. Some central HVAC's sound like freight trains rolling through. My cousins house literally shakes like a truck hit is when theirs kicks on.
-If you mount the indoor unit in a central location that you don't reside in, like sleeping or sitting often, you may rarely notice these things.

The outside unit I have in my Fuji 9RLS2 is almost invisible. I'd imagine if you mounted it on your house, or right under a window you spend time near, you'd probably here it just like you would about anything else, especially if you have expectations of 'quiet' before hand. The outdoor unit is especially quiet if your use to a central A/C outdoor unit that can be louder than a truck.


I'm going to dabble with the plastic pieces a bit, but I'm guessing it may be an effort in frustration. I once bought a new car that had a noisey shelf, and tried everything to silence it. Sometimes it is hard to tell exactly what the problem is.

[One other gotcha or disappointing selling technique is the filter in this higher end models. The advertising sounds like you are getting a real filtering system, or at least something akin to a filter panel in a central HVAC.
The reality is a thin strip of filter, that only covers 5% of the intake surface, the rest is a large pore mesh, and those little strips are EXPENSIVE, not reusable and not locally available. Basically worthless.]
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Old 04-14-14, 07:22 AM   #63
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re: pricing. I got several quotes. All fell in the same ballpark. It took some haggling to get it to that price. I did my research, including finding this site (Adding a Programmable Thermostat to Mitsubishi Mr. Slim Heat Pumps | Clean Energy Wonk) where, ignoring his rebate, he paid a lot more. And that leads to the next part... My number also includes three of the wireless programmable thermostats (which run ~$300 each). So for primary rooms (living room/kitchen/master bed) I can set normal 5 (mon-fri) and 2 (sat-sun) programs. The other three indoor units I just use the remotes on demand. The programmable is.... ok. I've used better, but, after a lot of playing and reading of the manual, I switched it out of default mode (designed for businesses, not homes) and it was better.


Energy Bill Example
Dec 2012 (Natural Gas Boiler Heat):
Gas Usage: 120 Therms
Gas Price: $125.24
Elec Usage: 619kWh
Elec Price: $82.30
Avg Temp: 44
Total Price: $207.54

Dec 2013 (Mini-split heat):
Gas Usage: 21 Therms
Gas Price: $32.77
Elec Usage: 1938kWh
Elec Price: $269.42
Avg Temp: 40 (yea, colder)
Total Price: $302.19

Quote:
Yes, they're are WAY quieter than a window/wall unit, luckily, but, they still wake me in the middle of the night as the compressor kicks on and the freon flows. Winter months are the worst as it's a loud 'tick', rather than just the normal drone of a window unit.

I can also hear one of the outside units kick on when the compressor kicks on and the fan spins up. That unit IS under a set of windows though.

Your mistake for locating outdoor unit at the head of your bed.
Two separate paragraphs. Reread. No one said the outside unit was anywhere near a bedroom. The INSIDE unit is what wakes me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff5may View Post
Total mismatch = 14000 BTU

My big question here is: why didn't you just put all the same indoor units in?

2 x 9k on a 20k odu = 2k mismatch
4 x 9k on a 36k odu = 0k mismatch

Running many zones takes a balancing act to run efficiently. For example, the zones that gobble up heat and cooling should share one unit. The other unit should hardly ever run. Kind of like a primary and a backup heat source. No idea on which zones use what load, but it doesn't take much science to figure out. If you have your system(s) rigged that way, it will save you money. Even with a 1 ton mismatch.

Hmmmmm....
You're talking about over-sizing rooms. the 6ks are in small rooms (~10x10). The 9ks are in larger rooms. Even 6k is overkill, but there's nothing smaller. And the outdoor units don't really come in ANY configuration. When talking multihead from Mitsu the options are 20kbtu (runs 2 inside), 24k (runs 3 inside), 30k (runs 3 inside), 36k (runs 4 inside) and 48k (runs 8 inside, plus another junction box inside).

My configuration would have been either 54k total or 56k total. (Yes, that's a lot of power. I believe a typical ducted system would have been 2.5-3T.)

I do however believe one of my rooms should have been a 12k, but, too late for that now.

The point of these systems is to heat and cool rooms as needed. Not the entire house. THAT's why they're efficient really. Not a bad deal for summer. But in winter, every room, especially ones with any piping, need to maintain a certain temp.

The point of how installation was done was partly ease and to keep from running 90 degree joints on the copper. One outdoor unit on each side of the house. 2 sets of hoses/wires run up one side, 4 sets of hoses/wires run up the other.

Quote:
-The radiator will 'ping' when it expands and contracts, mostly only during extreme temp swings. Sounds like the noise a submarine ping makes in movies. It may be less annoying to some, or simply they get use to it. I don't hear it too often and it was most often during very cold winter conditions.
-The plastic will also expand and contract and shift. Because it's made of many plastic pieces they 'tick' and sometimes 'crack' during this movement. This I find most annoying as it has a cheapness factor. Those with metal baseboard heating, or nearly all window A/C units or those hotel like all in one models never hear this because they are made of metal.
-The refrigerant will 'whoosh' quite noticeably too. You might remember this noise from an older fridge. The flowing noise is more noticeable when the unit ramps up or goes into defrost. I notice my unit tends to ramp up and down most during summer cooling, runs steady during winter heating, except during defrost which is a more extreme ramp up of cooling mode, and the fan is near silent then too. As it's just a plastic shell, it doesn't hide the whoosh noise at all.
This.


Also, can't use NEST with these.


I'm not trying to start a fight over these things. And I realize the OP made their decision and I hope it's worked out for them. Personally, I see mini-splits as an experiment. That's how I looked at it going in anyway. My problem is my experience. My experiment turned out with poor results. It was 6 months of constant work to get them working at all. (They leaked refrigerant for 4 months) Or to not drain condensation inside my house.

There aren't a lot of people that try to handle an entire house with just mini-splits. I turned on the A/C portion yesterday for the first time this year. They cooled the room. Yay?


I'm in MD btw. House is a Cape Code at roughly 1200sqft.
BTW: I'm the oldest Intro on the Introductions page, wow.... Brian from Baltimore,MD

Last edited by insaneintenti0n; 04-14-14 at 02:36 PM.. Reason: Adding my intro page for more house details
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Old 04-14-14, 08:32 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by ctgottapee View Post
The mini-split noise is the real deal and something I wish I would've known about. I run a Fuji 9RLS2, but I've seen comments on other models noting similar after I looked into it a bit more.

The inside unit is made of a giant metal 'radiator' encased in flimsy plastic; it was quite surprisingly just how cheap feeling it was. The light weight made it easy to mount - and likely produce and ship - and it doesn't look cheap once mounted. It's connected to two copper tubes.
-The radiator will 'ping' when it expands and contracts, mostly only during extreme temp swings. Sounds like the noise a submarine ping makes in movies. It may be less annoying to some, or simply they get use to it. I don't hear it too often and it was most often during very cold winter conditions.
-The plastic will also expand and contract and shift. Because it's made of many plastic pieces they 'tick' and sometimes 'crack' during this movement. This I find most annoying as it has a cheapness factor. Those with metal baseboard heating, or nearly all window A/C units or those hotel like all in one models never hear this because they are made of metal.
-The refrigerant will 'whoosh' quite noticeably too. You might remember this noise from an older fridge. The flowing noise is more noticeable when the unit ramps up or goes into defrost. I notice my unit tends to ramp up and down most during summer cooling, runs steady during winter heating, except during defrost which is a more extreme ramp up of cooling mode, and the fan is near silent then too. As it's just a plastic shell, it doesn't hide the whoosh noise at all.

All HVAC systems make noise, so it's more getting used to the differences, or learning of them. Some central HVAC's sound like freight trains rolling through. My cousins house literally shakes like a truck hit is when theirs kicks on.
-If you mount the indoor unit in a central location that you don't reside in, like sleeping or sitting often, you may rarely notice these things.

The outside unit I have in my Fuji 9RLS2 is almost invisible. I'd imagine if you mounted it on your house, or right under a window you spend time near, you'd probably here it just like you would about anything else, especially if you have expectations of 'quiet' before hand. The outdoor unit is especially quiet if your use to a central A/C outdoor unit that can be louder than a truck.


I'm going to dabble with the plastic pieces a bit, but I'm guessing it may be an effort in frustration. I once bought a new car that had a noisey shelf, and tried everything to silence it. Sometimes it is hard to tell exactly what the problem is.

[One other gotcha or disappointing selling technique is the filter in this higher end models. The advertising sounds like you are getting a real filtering system, or at least something akin to a filter panel in a central HVAC.
The reality is a thin strip of filter, that only covers 5% of the intake surface, the rest is a large pore mesh, and those little strips are EXPENSIVE, not reusable and not locally available. Basically worthless.]

The mini split that i bought . I honestly can not see anything on the noise . Yea it makes a little noise when i kicks on and is wide open. And mine is literally right beside the bedroom Only R13 insulation n the wall. But it is not very loud . Na its not going to be quieter than a central unit because the freon is flowin through the unit inside your room.
My house is 1200 sq ft also . I would like to have a scented filter. Prob will one day and get a extra filter. On using the mini split. I would sure buy another one if it went out without even thinking about it. The heat is a lot cheaper than using a oil filled eletric radiator heater. Using gas . I can not honestly say .I had gas . But once the tank ran out. I went to electric heat.
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Old 04-14-14, 07:38 PM   #65
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insaneintenti0n,

I for one am not trying to start any fights. I applaud you for posting your real-world experience with the system you have been operating for enough time to form opinions about. I believe conversations that discuss both sides of the subject are more useful, especially for homeowners that are on the fence about purchasing a mini-split system.

That being said, there is a difference between a productive argument and a brawl. Some people are more tolerant and tend to overlook minor flaws in a device, where others are more expectant of perfection. At retail prices, prospective owners have a right to high hopes of these units. Many cannot afford to make a bad gamble on the purchase. Better to have a heads-up on a quirk than to be surprised by it.

Nothing real in this world is perfect, and these devices are no exception. Compared to a natural gas furnace of equal efficiency and/or price, the two are neck and neck with each other. When the temperature drops outdoors, natural gas gains a larger advantage the lower the mercury goes. When the weather isn't so harsh, the heat pumps start to gain ground fast as it warms up from zero. Depending on your utility prices, there will be a balance point where one or the other costs less to run. As always, it's a good idea to have backup sources of heat.

I have no idea how you have the heat pumps set up in your home. I was just wondering why you didn't choose to match BTU's between indoor and outdoor units. The indoor units tend to cost close to the same price with the smaller capacities, and are much less costly than the outdoor unit. With the inverter outdoor design and the variable speed fans indoors, it would make sense to me to oversize a couple of indoor units in the most active zones (to help increase comfort) if I had spare capacity.

Last edited by jeff5may; 04-14-14 at 07:42 PM.. Reason: words
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Old 04-14-14, 09:35 PM   #66
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I wouldn't say much efficiency comes from having multi-units as comparable priced systems have zoning standard. There could be some cost effeciency if you were in an environment where the usage shifted drastically from one part of the house to the other.
I don't think any of the multi piece systems are really all that impressive; mainly in residential use for homes that just can't have duct work, like a castle or such.

Direct exchange geothermal, basically a buried mini split like system seems most optimal, and you get hot water out of the deal.

If I did a two indoor unit system, which is my plan, I would run two separate systems unless they really improve the multi-unit models. It also allows you a backup in case of issues that us DIY'ers may take a bit to fix and allows you to run just one unit during the long shoulder seasons or get more instant heating/cooling to a localized area.


-I went with the Fuji because of the 7 day timer as it's included rather than paying the $300+ extra and install on the Mits. The Fuji also had some features that Mits hadn't caught up with till the upcoming models they are releasing.
So far I'm not using the 7 day timer much due to the nature of how these things work and being a single install.

Other feature notes:
I've pretty much stopped using the ceiling fan as the fan in the indoor unit is super efficient and has various modes that mimic a fan. It's nice to have that functionality bundled together in one remote. It's dead quiet too.
The remote was designed by multiple separate teams of engineers and makes little sense especially to those of us in the US use to the standard thermostat. It DOES NOT even show you the actual temperature in the room NOR does it have a back light for the screen or buttons, I had to stick a fridge thermometer magnet on the remote. It also doesn't tell you dew point or allow you any adjustment of the Dry mode.
Heating can be slow to start and you'll occasionally get socked with a blast of cold air, almost always after defrost ends. Again Americans use to HVAC systems that make noise the instant you press a button will find this frustrating at times. When I'm freezing I want heat now, even if it's only a psychological satisfaction. Ideally the indoor unit would have a heater element that kicks on during those rare cold periods and during defrost, or when desiring a boost just like central air heat pump systems offer.
The I-Sensor is almost useless. It triggers far to easily like when sitting still watching a movie / playing games.
The 'Energy Saving' mode just adjust the thermostat 2 degrees from what is set; I can do that myself.
The Night mode would be nice if you could program it to trigger automatically; pain to tell my HVAC every night when i go to sleep and when I wake up just to save a few degrees.

And outdoor icing can be a serious issue in real winter environments. Adding or buying a unit with an outdoor pan ice melt heater kills the efficiency and the logic of its use is pretty dumb at this point. I knew it was an issue but their is little information on just how big an issue this is.
I went outside with hot 5 gallon buckets of water about 10 times this winter.

[note: My unit ping'd thrice and plastic ticked once just while writing this. It is about 12 feet away with line of sight.]
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Old 10-09-17, 06:56 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nokiasixteth View Post
Sorry but. I have to completely disagree with you . They are super quiet. I cant even hear mine unless its on high . Heating . Is extremely cheap . 13 bucks a month to heat the whole space i live in . 550 sq ft and sometimes ill open up the whole house and it heats the whole thing . Sooo. Unless your choppin wood and ever thing your self . It doesnt get much cheaper.
I have a few winter months that cost me $170 in baseboard heat that a mini split would sure help with. I guesstimate I would save about 1/3 of the $1000 yearly heating electric bill. At $350 a year in savings it would take 5 years for a 12k $1700 system install / cost to be re payed.
I guesstimate 1/3 savings as would likely keep the house warmer then I currently suffer with using the baseboard heat !
They are a good selling feature for the house as well , they add value
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Old 10-11-17, 06:44 PM   #68
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I will be hopefully adding another mini to my other side after i get my panels installed and finish up on my remodeling my other side of the house . Will prob oversize just a hair though and pay a little more for higher seer unit.
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Old 10-11-17, 07:19 PM   #69
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:-)

Wyr
God bless
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Old 10-23-17, 11:20 AM   #70
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Even the cheap models have a COP of 3. When its time to buy I am thinking will get the cheapest model I can find and call the problem solved.

A meager $750 12K unit would have a fast pay back time especially so if you buy or rent a Vacuum pump and install it yourself.

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