Heating Options

[Xringer]

I got one of the better brand names, so it was more costly than some others that are available..
The system was $2,111 shipped and I've invested money in some equipment
needed to install mini-splits..

Now that I'm going to be replacing the outside unit, I'm glad I have the tools
(and vacuum pump oil) to get the job done right.



http://ecorenovator.org/forum/projec...l-project.html

[AC_Hacker]

Cholcombe,

Originally Posted by cholcombe

Do you think a heat pump setup would be hard for a DIY'er like myself?

It's not impossible, but you'll need to do some serious self-education regarding heat loss, insulation, etc.

One thing you need to keep in mind is that fossil fuel heating produces a very large amount of high quality (AKA: high temp) heat. Heat pumps produce low quality heat (lower temp) but at efficiencies that are very favorable. Xringer has been keeping some very good notes on the economy of his ASHP, check that out.

Also, ground source heat pumps (AKA: GSHP), which I am building from scratch, are more efficient than Air Source Heat Pumps. The installation costs of a GSHP is very high. If you are going to try to make your own holes, which is where the majority of the cost is, it is no easy matter... this is the voice of experience talking here.

You didn't really say what kind of house it is you are living in, or what kind of insulation you have, or how how much it takes to heat it now, but if you were going to hire out the installation of a GSHP for your house, my guess about your house, from the very little you have written is that you would need about 5 Tons of GSHP installed. That would run you maybe $40,000 or $50,000. The break-even for GSHP systems is maybe 30 years. Also, it may be somewhat cheaper to run than your present system, but the walls would still feel cold.

You'd be better to spend $25,000 on serious insulation. (See links at bottom of post)

Originally Posted by cholcombe

I wouldn't say I know how to plumb but I have a book to learn how. My home has those giant cast iron radiators, do you think a heat pump would work with those?

By the way, since heat pumps produce low quality heat, your cast iron radiators wouldn't cut the mustard, not enough area. You might need to triple or quadruple the number of cast iron radiators to do the job.

Daox is right on the money, insulate, insulate, insulate... and then look for more leaks and insulate some more.

Older houses are really charming and wonderful I love mine, about the same vintage as yours. But old houses were absolutely NOT build to modern standards, as far as efficient heating goes. They are not very tight in the walls, the walls are too thin to hold sufficient insulation (they should be twice as thick, minimum), the corners are leaky, where the walls meet the roof is leaky, where the foundation meets the floor is leaky. It all needs to be gone over with a fine tooth comb and foamed and caulked, and did I say insulated? And the foundation should be insulated from the ground. In the old days, no one ever did this. Some states are requiring insulated foundations on all new-builds.

Daox mentioned "Super Insulation", I would add to this "Passive house". You might want to spend a few months devouring information on the topic(s), you'll be the warmer for it.

Regards,

-AC_HAcker

[cholcombe]

Wow this is great. I really feel like I can get something done with you guys here, you know what you're talking about. Thanks AC_Hacker, that was a great post. I've actually seen the Passive House specification before, it's quite interesting. I haven't totally read up on it but the idea I think is to be able to heat the house with nothing but a toaster oven size heater.

I agree the house is leaky. When we moved in, in September this year there was probably R10 in the attic and my guess is almost nothing in the walls. The basement had HUGE 6" square holes that were letting in cold air, and the door to the outside didn't close completely so that was swiss cheese also. It's gotten much better as I walk around feeling for small breezes and plugging them with foam, fiber stuff insulation, or something else. I've weather stripped the heck out of the basement door and that's tight now. I kinda worry that by making it 'too' tight the oil heater in the basement might start fuming us with the carbon monoxide. I should really install a detector in the basement.

I like the idea of blowing in insulation in the attic to R60. I've finished about half the attic now at R30 and even that seems a little light now that the cold blast is on.

I guess what I was looking for in my post was my end game. After I insulate the heck out of the house what would be the easiest way to heat it. I like that GSHP idea. I also looked into heat pipe solar panels. My house is detached from the other houses around it. I should look for a picture to post on here.

[cholcombe]

I've been keeping track of my bills on a little home wiki and I'm roughly guessing here that we're using 7 gallons of oil per day since mid december. Compared to what some other people here are using I'm sure this is very high. Oddly enough, this is less than half of what the former owners were using. The oil company just said they'd start billing me the same as the older couple who lived here before us so we said ok fine. But after calculating how much money I've given them vs how much oil we've used I think the previous couple used 2x as much oil as we are.

[Xringer]

A carbon monoxide detector in the basement is a good idea.

I installed one years ago, then replaced it when it got old. (they age out).

BUT, what I didn't realize, I was wasting my money..
The alarms in the basement boiler area can't be heard in our bedroom!!
If we had a fire or CO problem at night, those wimpy alarm beeps aren't going to disturb our sleep..

I ended up installing 3 wireless alarms (First Alert), which I really wouldn't
recommend, if there were wired versions available at a reasonable price.

First Alert - Products - SCO501CN-3ST

I don't like the way mine works in test mode.
It seems, the trigger alarm only sends out a single alert message to the other units, during test.
Sometimes during a test, one of the alarms doesn't hear the alert..
I've been told that during the real-thing, the transmitter repeats the
alert code transmission repeatedly..


I should have gone with hardwire.. I think they are likely to work better..

[Ryland]

Fuel oil tends to be the most expensive way to heat a house right now, but that can change and has changed in the past.
steam heat is really efficient as far as moving heat around the house as steam heat works under the principles of a heat pipe, you have a few gallons of working fluid that moves without the use of pumps, then you just need a boiler that is efficient.
If you are low income check around in your area to see what is avalible for energy audits, replacing doors that leak with insulated doors, drafty windows with good double pane windows, or at the very least pulling trim off and sealing up around your doors and windows, stuffed in fiber insulation is not as good as foam in place Great Stuff type foam (use the softer door and window foam around them) never use expanding foam to fill where morter is missing from the bricks, if you have gaps and cracks between bricks then re-point them, only use the expanding foam between where the bricks meet wood or other non masonry.
If you have a site where solar would work the evacuated tube solar collectors get really hot and work well for limited space, the draw back is they tend to cost more.
From the sounds of your site and weather most other heat sources are going to require some form of fuel so the choice there is going to need to be based off what they cost in your area.

[NiHaoMike]

Originally Posted by Xringer

A carbon monoxide detector in the basement is a good idea.

I installed one years ago, then replaced it when it got old. (they age out).

BUT, what I didn't realize, I was wasting my money..
The alarms in the basement boiler area can't be heard in our bedroom!!
If we had a fire or CO problem at night, those wimpy alarm beeps aren't going to disturb our sleep..

I ended up installing 3 wireless alarms (First Alert), which I really wouldn't
recommend, if there were wired versions available at a reasonable price.

First Alert - Products - SCO501CN-3ST

I don't like the way mine works in test mode.
It seems, the trigger alarm only sends out a single alert message to the other units, during test.
Sometimes during a test, one of the alarms doesn't hear the alert..
I've been told that during the real-thing, the transmitter repeats the
alert code transmission repeatedly..


I should have gone with hardwire.. I think they are likely to work better..

Open up the alarm and install a reed relay in parallel with the existing buzzer. Then it will be a common contact closure alarm signaling device. Also put a 15k resistor in parallel for line check if you're connecting it to a standard alarm panel.

[Xringer]

Originally Posted by NiHaoMike

Open up the alarm and install a reed relay in parallel with the existing buzzer. Then it will be a common contact closure alarm signaling device. Also put a 15k resistor in parallel for line check if you're connecting it to a standard alarm panel.

I think it's a speaker instead of a buzzer/beeper. Since it's a talking alarm.
It tells you where the alarm is, den, basement or bedroom and it also tells you if it's fire or CO..

I have been thinking about doing a mod, but have not looked inside to see if it's even possible.
But, the mod I've been thinking about is to de-solder the speaker, add some wire to move it upstairs..
Closer to the bedroom.

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by cholcombe

I haven't totally read up on it but the idea I think is to be able to heat the house with nothing but a toaster oven size heater.

That's not quite correct... The idea is that the heat produced by humans and by the energy efficient appliances they use will heat the house on all but the very coldest days.

Only then, on the coldest days, do you need the toaster.

...keep reading about the Passive House thing... It is amazingly well thought out.

Regards,

-AC_Hacker

%%%%%%%

[NiHaoMike]

Originally Posted by AC_Hacker

That's not quite correct... The idea is that the heat produced by humans and by the energy efficient appliances they use will heat the house on all but the very coldest days.

My College Station apartment is just like that. It tends to stay at about 65F without the heater on. But the winter is very mild at about 40-50F a lot of the time.