Takagi T-KJr2-IN Tankless Water Heater - Page 2

Mikesolar · 03-18-14, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinballlooking

I care about warranty I wanted to get a Navien and I called there tech support three times. They will not honor warranty in you buy over the internet or do a self-install. They will not even let the home owner go through tech support for an issue. The Plummer has to call the guy two doors down is a Plummer but I don’t want to bug him when I have an issue.

I called an online company that was selling Navien and told them the Navien would not cover the warranty if I bought form them. They said that was true but if a Plummer calls they will usually cover it. Thanks but no thanks.

So that is why I did not buy their product.

I called Rheem Tech support more than once and they said they would cover the warranty if I bought online they would even cover the warranty if I did a DIY install. But if the issue was caused by a bad install they would not cover that issue. That seems fair to me. I was all set to buy the Rheem RTGH-95DVLN

Then I saw Takagi T-H3-DV looked like the same unit just a little cheaper. I called their tech support and they had no issue covering it if I bought it online. It just had to be new. They said they would even cover it if I did the installed as long as it was installed by the book.

My friend the Plummer approved the plan and review the install so I am good to go.
Another reason I called the tech support I wanted to make sure they would have parts and the model I was going to buy was not at the end of the live cycle. They quit selling most parts for my old aqustar tank not long after after I got it. What good is a product that last 15 years if you can’t get parts for it.

I understand Navien reason for doing this. Tankless heaters have a lot of benefits but also there are a lot of snake oil comments out there (9 GPM, for example) which some people believe and then complain about when they don't get it. I cannot go to a wholesales to get many parts, they just are not available. I have to go through Navien

The good thing about this is that Navien has a record of all the issues and this has resulted in better and better units over time. I don't see that with other makers. This includes furnaces and boilers. Yea, it is a PITA to work with it especially when the unit is down and you have to wait over night for a part to show up (BTW, even out of warranty, the parts came for free).

That said, I am now moving towards tanks like the Vertex instead. The efficiency is the same and there are less technical issues. Yes, it is a bit more money. I don't know how anyone can compete with a $500 tankless water heater, except over time.

Servicetech · 03-18-14, 06:36 AM

If you have to pay a contractor for installation, payback time goes into decades. Simply not worth it for most people. If tankless manufacturers want to gain more than 5% market share they need to warranty a correctly installed DIY. With a $1,000 purchase price there needs to be warranty coverage and repalcment parts to gain widespread acceptance.

I can buy a $400 tank at the big box store and install it in an hour, and get the warranty covered. No expensive SS venting, "cold water sandwich", difficult to optain replacement parts. No freeze danger, even works in power outages. There's a reason tank water heaters account for 95% of US sales.

Is there a tankless that is competitve with the old school tank water heaters, or is it more about "being green", and wanting the latest and greatest?

Mikesolar · 03-18-14, 06:48 AM

I charge about $3000 to install a Navien tankless heater and that is pretty normal around here. Some people see the value in it but I have to admit there is a looooooong payback for it. I think they may have other reasons for doing it.

As far as being green, a super well insulated, power vented tank with a drain water heat recovery would be better but now you are getting into the same installed cost as a tankless. Of course there is solar, haha

I think someone should develop a condensing side arm HX for the power vented cheapie water heaters.

pinballlooking · 03-18-14, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikesolar

That said, I am now moving towards tanks like the Vertex instead. The efficiency is the same and there are less technical issues. Yes, it is a bit more money. I don't know how anyone can compete with a $500 tankless water heater, except over time.

That tank really interest me you get the best of both worlds.

Do you know if they have the same warranty issues? Like not being to by online or not allowing DIY installs?
Do you think they will come down in price or is that where they will stay?

Mikesolar · 03-18-14, 05:37 PM

Here is one online seller:

AO Smith Vertex Residential Water Heater - Vertex Water Heater - Residential Water Heater - Water Heater - PexSupply.com

I have no idea about the warranty issue but to me the price is right and if more people come into the market, the price should come down, I hope

Servicetech · 03-22-14, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikesolar

Here is one online seller:

AO Smith Vertex Residential Water Heater - Vertex Water Heater - Residential Water Heater - Water Heater - PexSupply.com

I have no idea about the warranty issue but to me the price is right and if more people come into the market, the price should come down, I hope

$1,600+ and "the price is right"? how much are you paying for natural gas in your area and how much water are you using?

Mikesolar · 03-22-14, 06:45 AM

Yup, the price is right.....if you compare with other things that do the same job. A standard power vented gas tank with 55% efficiency is what......$700 maybe so take the difference in cost and if you spend $400/yr on DHW (which is not unusual with a crap tank), it might pay for itself in 6 years. To me that is not bad.

Servicetech · 03-22-14, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikesolar

Yup, the price is right.....if you compare with other things that do the same job. A standard power vented gas tank with 55% efficiency is what......$700 maybe so take the difference in cost and if you spend $400/yr on DHW (which is not unusual with a crap tank), it might pay for itself in 6 years. To me that is not bad.

A "crap tank" is $325-$500, big difference vs. $1,600 - $2,000 for the AO smith. What advantage does the AO smith have vs. something like the T-H3-DV/OS?

Mikesolar · 03-22-14, 08:16 AM

This is what i consider a crap tank. Check out the price. We pay a bit more for some things up here.

GE | GE 50 gallon gas Power Vent Water Heater | Home Depot Canada

Servicetech · 03-22-14, 08:35 AM

General Electric | GE40 Gallon Natural Gas Water Heater 6 YR Warranty-36,000 BTU | Home Depot Canada is what I consider a "crap tank". At $838 for your version of a 'crap tank' why not go with something like the T-H3-DV/OS if you need power vent through PVC?

03-22-14, 06:45 AM	#17
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	Yup, the price is right.....if you compare with other things that do the same job. A standard power vented gas tank with 55% efficiency is what......$700 maybe so take the difference in cost and if you spend $400/yr on DHW (which is not unusual with a crap tank), it might pay for itself in 6 years. To me that is not bad. Last edited by Mikesolar; 03-22-14 at 06:47 AM..

03-18-14, 06:36 AM	#12
Servicetech Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Moore Oklahoma Posts: 267 Thanks: 108 Thanked 23 Times in 21 Posts	If you have to pay a contractor for installation, payback time goes into decades. Simply not worth it for most people. If tankless manufacturers want to gain more than 5% market share they need to warranty a correctly installed DIY. With a $1,000 purchase price there needs to be warranty coverage and repalcment parts to gain widespread acceptance. I can buy a $400 tank at the big box store and install it in an hour, and get the warranty covered. No expensive SS venting, "cold water sandwich", difficult to optain replacement parts. No freeze danger, even works in power outages. There's a reason tank water heaters account for 95% of US sales. Is there a tankless that is competitve with the old school tank water heaters, or is it more about "being green", and wanting the latest and greatest?

03-18-14, 06:48 AM	#13
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	I charge about $3000 to install a Navien tankless heater and that is pretty normal around here. Some people see the value in it but I have to admit there is a looooooong payback for it. I think they may have other reasons for doing it. As far as being green, a super well insulated, power vented tank with a drain water heat recovery would be better but now you are getting into the same installed cost as a tankless. Of course there is solar, haha I think someone should develop a condensing side arm HX for the power vented cheapie water heaters.

03-18-14, 05:37 PM	#15
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	Here is one online seller: AO Smith Vertex Residential Water Heater - Vertex Water Heater - Residential Water Heater - Water Heater - PexSupply.com I have no idea about the warranty issue but to me the price is right and if more people come into the market, the price should come down, I hope

03-22-14, 08:16 AM	#19
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	This is what i consider a crap tank. Check out the price. We pay a bit more for some things up here. GE \| GE 50 gallon gas Power Vent Water Heater \| Home Depot Canada

03-22-14, 08:35 AM	#20
Servicetech Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Moore Oklahoma Posts: 267 Thanks: 108 Thanked 23 Times in 21 Posts	General Electric \| GE40 Gallon Natural Gas Water Heater 6 YR Warranty-36,000 BTU \| Home Depot Canada is what I consider a "crap tank". At $838 for your version of a 'crap tank' why not go with something like the T-H3-DV/OS if you need power vent through PVC?