EcoRenovator  

Go Back   EcoRenovator > Improvements > Geothermal & Heat Pumps
Advanced Search
 


Blog Register 60+ Home Energy Saving Tips Recent Posts Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-25-17, 09:02 PM   #21
nokiasixteth
Journeyman EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: richton ms
Posts: 323
Thanks: 38
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roshani View Post
i am new to this forum ...but i really appreciate what you have discussed here..

Regards
Roshani
When i get into the slow season i will be adding pics because i will be trying some of the things discussed

nokiasixteth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 12:16 AM   #22
jeff5may
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA
Posts: 2,348
Thanks: 367
Thanked 593 Times in 496 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to jeff5may
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEnd View Post
You don't even need salt for this type of system. Water itself will act as a desiccant as long as its temperature is below the dew point. With this type of system when you do the heat removal process you are effectively only removing latent heat. there is no need to add heat to power evaporation then remove the left over heat from that process.
The brine solution has an affinity for water. The latent heat of condensation is substituted for the energy required for the salt to dissolve. The water isn't condensing into the solution, it is being absorbed. The process allows the solution to not have to be cooler than room temperature to grab moisture from the air. It is also less energy demanding than a phase change system.

If employed by the OP, the desiccant system would not replace the mini split, it would complement operation by attacking the latent load. It could feed off of the outdoor unit waste heat, though. Direct contact not recommend (salt water and aluminum or copper could prove deadly to the heat pump), but a simple helical wrap around the compressor discharge pipe would make a good preheat exchanger.

In contrast, adding a groundwater quench stage to the heat pump acts as a double effect regenerator would behave with the AWG system. Different methods same objective. Try not to violate any patents making either of these work.

https://www.google.com/patents/US20100090356

Last edited by jeff5may; 08-26-17 at 10:23 AM.. Reason: Clarification
jeff5may is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-17, 07:38 AM   #23
nokiasixteth
Journeyman EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: richton ms
Posts: 323
Thanks: 38
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
Default

I am going to do something this evening i should have done already .The two refrigerant lines comeing out i plan to get some hose insulation and better insulate them . I am sure they are getting some extra heat from the outside makeing it less efficient
nokiasixteth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-17, 04:24 PM   #24
nokiasixteth
Journeyman EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: richton ms
Posts: 323
Thanks: 38
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
Default

Went today and picked up a mister thing to hook to the water hose . Supposed to use 10gph. Being i am on well water it should help me out in another way . But have it spraying on the outside unit . Forgot to pick up some foam . The old foam is about hadit that i had on there. Will get a few numbers crunched tomarrow going to run it tonight see if it helps out on keeping the entire house cool or not . I am thinking my 220 volt meter is bad off so i dont really have a way to test wattage drop or anything
nokiasixteth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-17, 09:27 PM   #25
jeff5may
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA
Posts: 2,348
Thanks: 367
Thanked 593 Times in 496 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to jeff5may
Default

Grab a kwh meter from eBay or Amazon. The type to look for has inductive current sensing. Rather than just plug the unit into the instrument (like the kill-a-watt meters do), then into a wall outlet, the current sensors wrap around the hot wires of your mini split. There are types that have a ring sensor, and others that have a claw sensor, to measure the current draw. With the ring type, the power wires must be disconnected and run through the ring, then reconnected. With the claw sensors, the claw is opened to wrap around the wires, then closed. Obviously the ring type is more permanent and less foolproof than the claw type.

You can spend as much or as little as you like on the kwh meter. Naturally the more expensive units are going to have more bells and whistles than the economy models. Wireless communication with another device is a big one. Monitor the usage with an app that will spit out graphs and charts, or use paper and pen to log readings. Personal preference is Paramount. For the task at hand, either method will yield useful data and trends.
jeff5may is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to jeff5may For This Useful Post:
nokiasixteth (08-27-17)
Old 08-27-17, 10:12 PM   #26
nokiasixteth
Journeyman EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: richton ms
Posts: 323
Thanks: 38
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
Default



This seems pretty nice Only thing i have found of it too. lot easier than digging hundreds of feet flat 8 ft deep. My only wonder is . How the heck does the guy keep out the rain water from his hole. The hole in rainy season would fill up with ground water. unless it was closed somehow but that seems like that would make it even more less efficient. And obviously the guy needs to space these things out a good bit. He is basically getting all his useable heat from the ground spacing them less than 2 feet apart ground doesnt give up heat quickly
nokiasixteth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-17, 07:44 AM   #27
jeff5may
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA
Posts: 2,348
Thanks: 367
Thanked 593 Times in 496 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to jeff5may
Default

Ok, so with that guy's earth tube test, he was transferring about 200 Watts with 2 holes. There are about 3500 Watts per ton of refrigeration, so you figure that out. Dozens of holes per ton of capacity.

You ain't me, so you may enjoy digging holes. I don't. You already have a well, so guess what? I recommend the same thing: put your well pump on a solar panel.

Your line of thinking is correct with respect to the ground having low heat transfer. It has lots and lots of buffering ability, but not by the pound. As the recirculating ground loop gets larger, the heat transfer ability follows, eventually approaching that of a well or cave.
jeff5may is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to jeff5may For This Useful Post:
nokiasixteth (08-28-17)
Old 08-28-17, 08:41 AM   #28
nokiasixteth
Journeyman EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: richton ms
Posts: 323
Thanks: 38
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff5may View Post
Ok, so with that guy's earth tube test, he was transferring about 200 Watts with 2 holes. There are about 3500 Watts per ton of refrigeration, so you figure that out. Dozens of holes per ton of capacity.

You ain't me, so you may enjoy digging holes. I don't. You already have a well, so guess what? I recommend the same thing: put your well pump on a solar panel.

Your line of thinking is correct with respect to the ground having low heat transfer. It has lots and lots of buffering ability, but not by the pound. As the recirculating ground loop gets larger, the heat transfer ability follows, eventually approaching that of a well or cave.
For my place the most economical would be the well pump with dc on pannels. But . I am helping someone else basically making a system to make there window shaker more efficient where his holes are mini 12 ft holes even with my design i built to dig we could punch a 50 footer in less than an hour . that 10ft hole takes me about 10 mins. But the 50 footer would be a good canidate for the water sourced loop instead becuase it may be more economical to them than the vertical earth tube . But (i still would like to know if that would work my self )

Yeah i dont particularly (like) to dig holes but it gives me a chance to see flaws in my design that someone else may see. And its just set and go until pipe change here so not much work

So he is transfering about 8.3 watts per foot with the tubes yea the top 3 ft prob isnt transfering much of any thing.
nokiasixteth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-17, 08:09 AM   #29
DEnd
Apprentice EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 117
Thanks: 6
Thanked 26 Times in 24 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff5may View Post
The brine solution has an affinity for water. The latent heat of condensation is substituted for the energy required for the salt to dissolve. The water isn't condensing into the solution, it is being absorbed. The process allows the solution to not have to be cooler than room temperature to grab moisture from the air. It is also less energy demanding than a phase change system.

If employed by the OP, the desiccant system would not replace the mini split, it would complement operation by attacking the latent load. It could feed off of the outdoor unit waste heat, though. Direct contact not recommend (salt water and aluminum or copper could prove deadly to the heat pump), but a simple helical wrap around the compressor discharge pipe would make a good preheat exchanger.
You still have to add heat to regenerate the desiccant, and that amount of heat is equal to the amount of energy needed to drive the desired amount of phase change. With that you likely then have left over heat that you have to get rid of. The total energy added is greater than the latent load, unless you are running the desiccant with a vapor pressure differential that helps drive recharge. Yes you can make the energy additions more efficient ("free" energy from the sun or waste heat) or use "free" energy dumps (night time radiant cooling) however the total energy required is still higher than the latent load you are removing.

Using a chilled waterfall system the only heat you are adding to the system is a small amount of pumping energy. Excess water gathered by the system only has to be drained away.

So if this is more efficient why doesn't FEMA and the military use it? #1 evaporation collected water is clean. #2 it is operating outside they don't need to bring the brine water back down to indoor temperatures.
DEnd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-17, 12:12 AM   #30
jeff5may
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA
Posts: 2,348
Thanks: 367
Thanked 593 Times in 496 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to jeff5may
Default

You can argue physics or theory all day long about what why how, doesn't hurt my feelings a bit. I done done it already. Due to the low mass flow of recirculating solution, sensible heat transfer indoors is insignificant. The latent transfer component indoors is a partial pressure type of transfer, not a heat gradient type of transfer. Outdoors is a different story. The more solar heat (surface area) that can be fed through the still or regenerator, the stronger the brine solution will end up being fed back indoors. This has been covered in previous threads using closed containers of brine solution as PCM heat storage media. All of the relevant figures remain the same, only the purpose has been changed.

If I did it again, I would probably use a teensy solar fountain pump to recirculate the solution. The outdoor rig I improvised way back when really surprised me in terms of expected versus actual performance. It could have kept a decent size hydroponic system fed with fresh water indefinitely. It looked much like this cross section sketch:

My original rig could be made more efficient by containing the liquid solution and heating it in a dedicated solar collector, and by turning the flat bottom into a stepped terrace. Both measures would boost water extraction. To get even more productivity out of the outdoor side, a real regenerator could be fashioned by dumping the hot solar panel brine into an evaporative cooling tower type creation. The hot water would leave through the top with the outdoor air, the strong brine solution would fall to the bottom and be routed indoors.

Here's your super simple process chart:


It looks like the OP won't be using this method, at least not for now. I'm done talking about it at the moment to keep the discussion moving forward.

jeff5may is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to jeff5may For This Useful Post:
stevehull (09-05-17)
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Ad Management by RedTyger
Inactive Reminders By Icora Web Design