Rooftop solar panels become new enemy of U.S. firefighters

[stevehull]

Exeric,

PLEASE!! What happens at night!! PV panels are NOT always energized.

That is why I posted that issue.

Yet, firefighters are being told PV panels take 7-10 days to de-energize and are always on.

Respectfully,


Steve

[Exeric]

Steve,
As far as my thinking goes solar panels being always powered, even at night, is a red herring. That was never the issue or close to being true. It just diverts attention from the direction this discussion was taking, ie, that the publicity surrounding the solar panel fire fighting problem is just an insidious effort to slow the solar movement.

It does the solar power movement no good to act immaturely when legitimate issues come up. That includes building straw men and then picturesqely destroying them. So what?

[jeff5may]

Exeric,

Did you get the gist of my previous post? The problem in this issue is not in the design of the units!

Solar power systems, from WAAAAY back when, have always been designed with safety in mind. To be UL listed the systems must have multiple fail-safes built into them so they will not kill people if something goes wrong. If grid-tied, they cannot run if the grid is down. If not grid-tied, they have multiple over-voltage, over-current, ground fault, and such safety circuits to keep them from doing bad things to people, buildings, and batteries.

The main problem here is twofold. Emergency responders are trained in a generic manner very quickly, then refine their training as junior officers in the field. Journalists follow the ambulances and fire trucks like sharks. These two conditions make for really good news at times. No attempts are usually made to instill meaning into events that occur until much later than when they occur. Viewers are even encouraged to call in and heckle their angle while events are being broadcast live.

My take on this situation is this: if the fireman's boss's boss doesn't know better, the fireman has his hands tied. The reporter doesn't care, they are just there for their fifteen minutes of fame. Who's to blame? Not the solar panel manufacturer. The lawyers might sort it out someday, but don't hold your breath.

My question is this: would the fire have been put out if the firemen had put axes through panels? The world may never know....

[Exeric]

I agree with most of what you say. Bad information usually comes from both sides of an issue. But I think the philosophy of acting equally as crappy your opponent makes no sense. The point I was trying to make is that UL ratings, and conscientious efforts by the manufactures does not nearly mitigate all the dangers. If that was the case then firefighters wouldn't worry about shutting off all gas and electric to non solar panel equiped houses that are on fire. Once a fire happens, even though it wasn't caused by the solar panel themselves, then all bets are off. As they say, **** happens.

You would never spray water into a UL rated device with the power on and feel guaranteed of safety. Similarly, one cannot feel guaranteed of safety when spraying water onto a raging fire with solar panels on top during daylight. Power is definitely on within those panels and most likely right up to first disconnect. I would feel "safer" with those protection devices within the panels, but if I was a fireman I would definitely not feel safe.

[iamgeo]

Almost the entire roof of that building was covered with solar panels. There was barely any room to walk around let alone cut holes in the roof.

[Robaroni]

A new technology comes along and that industry has to educate the Fire Department?

OK, let's go back a hundred years when George Westinghouse was running wires across this country for the NEW electric grid. The individuals fighting the fire had to LEARN how to address electricity the same way they had to learn how to address, new chemicals, new building materials, new house designs, high rise building, etc., etc. It's the job of the fire departments to train their FF for new technologies, not the PV industry to train them. Did the automobile companies teach fire fighters how to fight auto fires? No, so why should the PV industry have the responsibility for teaching the fire departments a new technology?

They shouldn't!

More rubbish, probably from people who would love to dump on Alternate Energy.

That's my 4 cents. (adjusted for inflation)

Rob

[Robaroni]

Originally Posted by iamgeo

Almost the entire roof of that building was covered with solar panels. There was barely any room to walk around let alone cut holes in the roof.

If they can figure how to put out a fire on the 35th floor of a high rise they can figure out how to fight a fire on a roof with PV modules.


What's actually happening with intertie PV systems is that they are going more and more to microinverters, like my system. If the main house power is shut off my system shuts off the microinverters (actually it shuts them down to 1 volt each). Think about it, they have to shut down because their tested not to supply power to the grid during power failures which would harm repairmen working on downed lines.
Even an inverter system without microinverters runs strings of modules. That's a series string, if you open the string the most power from the modules is its VOC (voltage open circuit) from ONE module. Not only won't it give you a shock if it did you would have to touch both leads and they would have to be bare copper wire. So now I'm on a roof with gloves, rubber boots and an axe chopping away at PV modules, what are the chances I'm going to get a shock? Pretty slim.

Rob

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by Robaroni

A new technology comes along and that industry has to educate the Fire Department?

But industry has worked with fire safety and with building codes and electrical codes to make sure that fire departments can work safely, that is why DC disconnects have to be installed and why grid tied systems have to cut power when grid power is cut.
But you get someone who doesn't know how to do their job, either from not paying attention or from lack of training and it gets bad press for everyone.

[Robaroni]

Originally Posted by Ryland

But industry has worked with fire safety and with building codes and electrical codes to make sure that fire departments can work safely, that is why DC disconnects have to be installed and why grid tied systems have to cut power when grid power is cut.
But you get someone who doesn't know how to do their job, either from not paying attention or from lack of training and it gets bad press for everyone.

Ryland,
Sure, but the onus is on the fire departments to educate themselves.

If I go to my local power company with a request to intertie, it's my responsibility to conform to their standards to protect linemen working during an outage. Those linemen have been trained how to deal with outages and line problems so knowing intertie guidelines makes sure they have no surprises.

As far as fire goes, code dictates that the system shuts down, just like I provide my power supplier and just like my power provider it is their responsibility to know how and deal with the outage. Education is up to them just like it was up to them when the first automobile caught on fire. They can go to the auto industry or the PV industry for information, procedures, etc. but it is still their responsibility to be prepared for emerging technologies just like it was when the power grid was installed initially.


They can't claim that the PV modules prevent them from putting out a fire anymore than they can claim not putting out a fire on an EV.

As for shocks, I simply don't believe it and the people claiming them are only showing their ignorance of basic electricity regardless whether that electricity is from the grid or a PV array.

Rob

One more note, my system guidelines dictate that I have clearly labeled power disconnects in clear view. I had to submit a drawing to my power company as to the location of that box which must also be mounted on the outside of the house. The power company has the ability to lock it if they deem necessary.

[Exeric]

Originally Posted by Robaroni

Even an inverter system without microinverters runs strings of modules. That's a series string, if you open the string the most power from the modules is its VOC (voltage open circuit) from ONE module. Not only won't it give you a shock if it did you would have to touch both leads and they would have to be bare copper wire. So now I'm on a roof with gloves, rubber boots and an axe chopping away at PV modules, what are the chances I'm going to get a shock? Pretty slim.
Rob

I'm no technical expert on PV but I'd like to know where you got your information here. My understanding is that non-microinverter grid tied PV systems have several modules in series supplying DC voltage up to 300 or 400 volts at the inverter. Also, I'm a big enthusiast for PV systems and I'd like to one day install a system at my house. Rob, why do think that someone like me has some grudge or is in opposition to the solar industry? I'm no firefighter but I'm a human being. Its called empathy Rob. How would a firefighter know ahead of time if a house has a grid tied system, non grid tied, or a grid tied micro-inverter system, all of which can impact the level of risk?

Again, it gets back to the problem of people getting their back up, (like an angry cat) when they see a technical problem as a threat to their affinity group. Don't be so tribal. It not us and them.