![]() |
![]() |
#51 |
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germantown, WI
Posts: 5,525
Thanks: 1,162
Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts
|
![]() Thanks for the update. I was wondering if you'd be able to tell a difference already. That is great!
I know I can tell a difference where my tile floor is and isn't insulated in my basement.
__________________
Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by Daox; 10-20-14 at 12:58 PM.. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#52 | |
Supreme EcoRenovator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,004
Thanks: 303
Thanked 724 Times in 534 Posts
|
![]() Quote:
My approach is to keep using the same very small mini-split (3/4 Ton), and to continue to improve the insulation in the house, room at a time, so that the mini-split can handle that additional area also. Reducing the heat loss from the kitchen floor means that I can now expand the heated area of the house into the kitchen. Still, even in the kitchen, I have more possible energy loss improvements. Although the floor is now approaching standard, the windows are well below standard. I also have obvious infiltration from some areas in the kitchen that I can eliminate. This seems a more interesting challenge than simply buying greater heat output. -AC
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker... Last edited by AC_Hacker; 10-20-14 at 02:44 PM.. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#53 |
Journeyman EcoRenovator
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 314
Thanks: 39
Thanked 50 Times in 45 Posts
|
![]() What are you using for air film?
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#54 |
Supreme EcoRenovator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,004
Thanks: 303
Thanked 724 Times in 534 Posts
|
![]() "Air Film" is the term that describes the boundary layer between any surface and air.
The air film boundary has an R-value ascribed to it in most thorough R-value tables. -AC
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker... |
![]() |
![]() |
The Following User Says Thank You to AC_Hacker For This Useful Post: | buffalobillpatrick ![]() |
![]() |
#55 |
Journeyman EcoRenovator
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 314
Thanks: 39
Thanked 50 Times in 45 Posts
|
![]() Inside air film above floor = R-0.68
Inside air film below flooring = R-0.68 Inside air film above EPS (one surface reflective) = R-2.23 Outside air film below EPS = R-0.17 Just trying to make sense of the numbers. Above the floor, is that underlayment, under floor, tar paper? Eps are you calling the polymeric coating and foil the air film? Isn't that in the total R-value called out on the label? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#56 | ||
Supreme EcoRenovator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,004
Thanks: 303
Thanked 724 Times in 534 Posts
|
![]() Quote:
this is from California Energy Commission: Quote:
-AC
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker... Last edited by AC_Hacker; 10-22-14 at 11:54 AM.. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
The Following User Says Thank You to AC_Hacker For This Useful Post: | buffalobillpatrick ![]() |
![]() |
#57 |
Journeyman EcoRenovator
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 314
Thanks: 39
Thanked 50 Times in 45 Posts
|
![]() When I originally googled air film I got mostly results for the film "air". While at the store yesterday I did find Perma-R Poly sheathing with foil. The 3/8" board itself shows r-1.5 . And lists the system, with minimum 3/4" air gap reaching r-4.47. That could be multiplied for 3 3/8" for almost r-13.41 with a 1/8" thermal break before sheet rock on a 2x4 wall...if you could make it work within an 1/8" tolerance. The same could be done with 2 layers of their 3/4" board for 3" r-11.94 with a 1/2 space left over between sheetrock.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#58 | |
Supreme EcoRenovator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,004
Thanks: 303
Thanked 724 Times in 534 Posts
|
![]() Quote:
It's quite similar to the Multi Layer Insulation idea I am investigating. However, R13.41 total R-value in a 4" wall (really 3.5") is not so amazing. For comparison:
Don't forget, that if you have a standard stud wall, the stud itself has an R-value of R-1 per inch, and is a "thermal bridge", conducting unwanted heat or cold, so the stud section itself is actually R-3.5. In typical wall construction, the cumulative wall R-value will be reduced for any insulation by about 18%, so the above numbers would be:
If you can make your stud system non-continuous, it is a very large improvement. -AC
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker... Last edited by AC_Hacker; 10-23-14 at 01:33 PM.. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#59 |
Journeyman EcoRenovator
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 314
Thanks: 39
Thanked 50 Times in 45 Posts
|
![]() it was the multi layer radiant insulation I was thinking about. After you finish with batts are you planning on sheathing for more air sealing?
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#60 | |
Supreme EcoRenovator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,004
Thanks: 303
Thanked 724 Times in 534 Posts
|
![]() Quote:
I have seen seriously credible information from:
I have gotten so much conflicting information from so many sources, that it is making my head spin around as I write this (yes, just like in the Exorcist movie). We have a local organization called Energy Trust, that is funded by local gas and oil companies. They offer financial incentives for precisely following their instillation protocols, and they will send an inspector to verify your compliance, before they pay out. I have already decided that their financial incentives are insufficient to make me want to abandon my own personal ideas on this project, plus I hate the idea of an inspector... it violates my 'Pirate sensibilities'. However, I am interested in their recommendations, whether I follow them or not. They require that your underfloor insulation be put in with absolutely no air gaps (I'm already going to 'Energy Jail' for that one), and that the lowest surface be completely open at the best, and vapor-permeable at the least. The local 'Trade Wisdom' is that your bottom surface should be an air-tight vapor barrier. Currently, my floor is fir, with a fir subfloor, and the only moisture barrier in the current structure is the EPS layer that I put in. Eventually however, I plan on putting in radiant heat on top of the floor, and my final top layer will be an organic high quality linoleum similar to Marmolium (German branded, organic, linoleum), if not actually Marmoleum. That will be a vapor barrier, also. So, at that point I will be going to 'Energy Jail' on two counts of serious vapor-theory violations. Getting back to your original question, I really would like to add another 1.5" to 2" of foil-faced Poly-Iso (foil side up) that runs in cross-direction to my floor joists, sealing all the seams with foam and tape. This should effectively stop the thermal-bridging from the floor joists. Also it would be a vapor barrier. It would also give me an effective R-value of 0.82 * (14.26 + 15) + 11.4 = 36. Since the Oregon minimum for under floor insulation is R-30, this would not really be anything to call a hyper-achievement. [NOTE: the above calculation is assuming that thermal bridging will reduce the effective R-value of the structure that is above the Poly-Iso by 18%, and that the full R-value of the Poly-Iso will apply.] This final act will put me in 'Energy Jail' for three counts of serious under floor insulation and vapor-theory violations. But I will proudly retain my Pirate status. Best, -AC
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker... Last edited by AC_Hacker; 10-25-14 at 02:22 PM.. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|