The attack on Distributed Energy

pinballlooking · 07-18-14, 11:15 AM

It looks like these guys went from .22 KWH to .034 KWH and they do not allow net metering?
I don’t live here but this seems crazy.
TVA is killing the solar industry with 3 easy steps |

This is a good article on the attack on solar power.
Distributed Energy: Powering the Electricity Grid Together
Distributed Energy: Powering the Electricity Grid Together - Renewable Energy - MOTHER EARTH NEWS

This seems like it is spreading across the country.

OffGridKindaGuy · 07-18-14, 07:48 PM

"Be Greedy.. Supply Yourself!" has always been my motto. I never did like the idea of connecting to the grid! It's all the way or no way, as I see it..

Why waste your resources, time and effort to help supply someone down the street that has no intentions of conserving anything! They certainly don't give a hoot about anything except keeping their air conditioning and 60" plasma TV fired up!

I'm glad that I never got caught up in that trap..

pinballlooking · 07-18-14, 09:20 PM

I am grandfathered until 2020 but after that I might be looking at going off grid. I still hope EV batteries will be cost effective at that time.

NeilBlanchard · 07-19-14, 09:29 AM

I think that it will go back in the direction of more renewables, again. Solar PV in particular is supported by people across the political spectrum - precisely because it is independent.

stevehull · 07-19-14, 10:54 AM

I agree with Neil.

People are fascinated by the prospect of having the meter "go backwards". Many do not look at the return on investment and simply buy it (wind turbine, PV panels, etc) because it is easy to understand.

The energy tax credit is due to expire at the end of 2016. It is clear that the democrats will support it, but also the republicans will as it saves corporate America a LOT of money.

Recently flew into Boston's Logan airport during a clear day and when I was seated at the window. I was amazed at the huge expanses of solar PVs on warehouses, industrial buildings and such. This is a dramatic change from just a couple years ago.

It is also fun to google solar PV panels, return on investment and look at what was being said only 5 years ago. At that time the panels were $2-3 a watt and then installation was above that. Most recently, I saw an expected price under $0.50 per watt by 2017. At that point, the costs for installation racks per panel become a larger issue as a proportion of total cost.

I look to many of the larger power companies to embrace solar PV. The question is if they will build huge multi-hundred acre PV "farms" or if the distributed model (rooftop solar) will be allowed.

Here is the kicker. In just a couple years, small residential natural gas powered fuel cells (~20 kW) will be on the cost order of what a solar PV installation costs today. The natural gas companies will REALLY push for use of the existing natural gas lines to use this technology and to have distributed energy as a norm. These fuel cells will be essentially 100% efficient as waste heat will be used to supply to house (in winter) as well as to heat water.

Regardless, look to a maintenance of the PV tax credit (perhaps even expanded), but a brou ha ha of a battle between central and distributed energy essentially pitting natural gas companies against major electric utilities.

A winner will be those utilities that have their foot in both camps. In Oklahoma, Oklahoma Natural Gas and Electric (OGE) will be one of the first to embrace this.

This will also be helpful as local neighborhood electric distribution "pods" (think local "networks") will become the norm allowing far more secure service during storms, etc. It also allows for simple rerouting around the point of calamity.

Brave new world!

Steve

NiHaoMike · 07-19-14, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevehull

Here is the kicker. In just a couple years, small residential natural gas powered fuel cells (~20 kW) will be on the cost order of what a solar PV installation costs today. The natural gas companies will REALLY push for use of the existing natural gas lines to use this technology and to have distributed energy as a norm. These fuel cells will be essentially 100% efficient as waste heat will be used to supply to house (in winter) as well as to heat water.

As opposed to an internal combustion engine operated generator that can be readily mass produced today?

OffGridKindaGuy · 07-20-14, 07:29 AM

If it was left to the private sector, I believe that advancements in local production would have been more than what they are now. The Government took control and made everyone fat and happy without responsibility, hence, hindering development..

They created the monster, "somewhat" accept local production, and want to control that also! If you have a legal grid tie system, you're registered like a sex offender!

Rural Electrification

pinballlooking · 07-20-14, 07:41 AM

I know a lot of home owners like add some solar. Then add some more as fund's allow. But we are required the pay a 100 fee for each change and have it inspected. That adds up pretty fast.

OffGridKindaGuy · 07-20-14, 08:09 AM

If the supplies were always "Limited", imagine the advancements in efficiencies of appliances and such that we would have today! This factor only became an issue after rolling brown outs started happening and it was discovered that the existing system wasn't sufficient to cover the loads..

where2 · 07-20-14, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinballlooking

I know a lot of home owners like add some solar. Then add some more as fund's allow. But we are required the pay a 100 fee for each change and have it inspected. That adds up pretty fast.

$100 fee is a bargain! I've always referred to the start small and add a little over time as funds allow as the "Modular Lego Method". It should have been simple with micro-inverters.

I had to write to a few of my state legislators last night. It seems one state legislator got an Op-Ed printed in one of the South Florida newspapers yesterday characterizing how everyone who can afford a PV system with net metering is essentially wealthy and freeloading off those who cannot afford a PV system, or those who rent and cannot legally install PV.

I've looked at the roofs around my town on the latest google aerial photos (less than 12 months old). My town of ~4000 residences currently has ten or fewer PV arrays. If all the other PV users receive twice the benefit my little 4.4kW array provides, then the PV owners combined benefit from the grid is costing every other residence in town less than the value of 1kWh of energy per month. It's the same expense as spending an extra 8 seconds at a traffic light 20 days a month commuting to work. I can usually find more than $0.10 per month walking between my car and a store, if I look down.

The state legislator's solution to the current "net metering problem" is to "provide financial incentives for large industry-scale solar installations that give all consumers the opportunity to participate in the both the benefits and costs". Keep in mind, the State of Florida didn't pony up a dime toward my PV installation. In fact, the Florida Legislature created a quasi-governmental body that charges every PV system designer $250 to review a PV system three-line diagram for compliance with the NEC. My AHJ subsequently charged me another $400+ for electrical and structural building permits and inspections. My "net meter" typically records ~300kWh per month that I barter with the grid during peak energy hours and retrieve after sunset...

07-18-14, 11:15 AM	#1
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	The attack on Distributed Energy It looks like these guys went from .22 KWH to .034 KWH and they do not allow net metering? I don’t live here but this seems crazy. TVA is killing the solar industry with 3 easy steps \| This is a good article on the attack on solar power. Distributed Energy: Powering the Electricity Grid Together Distributed Energy: Powering the Electricity Grid Together - Renewable Energy - MOTHER EARTH NEWS This seems like it is spreading across the country.

07-18-14, 07:48 PM	#2
OffGridKindaGuy Hi-Tech Hillbilly Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 97 Thanks: 1 Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts	"Be Greedy.. Supply Yourself!" has always been my motto. I never did like the idea of connecting to the grid! It's all the way or no way, as I see it.. Why waste your resources, time and effort to help supply someone down the street that has no intentions of conserving anything! They certainly don't give a hoot about anything except keeping their air conditioning and 60" plasma TV fired up! I'm glad that I never got caught up in that trap.. __________________ If it don't, I'll always think it shoulda..

07-19-14, 10:54 AM	#5
stevehull Steve Hull Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: hilly, tree covered Arcadia, OK USA Posts: 826 Thanks: 241 Thanked 165 Times in 123 Posts	I agree with Neil. People are fascinated by the prospect of having the meter "go backwards". Many do not look at the return on investment and simply buy it (wind turbine, PV panels, etc) because it is easy to understand. The energy tax credit is due to expire at the end of 2016. It is clear that the democrats will support it, but also the republicans will as it saves corporate America a LOT of money. Recently flew into Boston's Logan airport during a clear day and when I was seated at the window. I was amazed at the huge expanses of solar PVs on warehouses, industrial buildings and such. This is a dramatic change from just a couple years ago. It is also fun to google solar PV panels, return on investment and look at what was being said only 5 years ago. At that time the panels were $2-3 a watt and then installation was above that. Most recently, I saw an expected price under $0.50 per watt by 2017. At that point, the costs for installation racks per panel become a larger issue as a proportion of total cost. I look to many of the larger power companies to embrace solar PV. The question is if they will build huge multi-hundred acre PV "farms" or if the distributed model (rooftop solar) will be allowed. Here is the kicker. In just a couple years, small residential natural gas powered fuel cells (~20 kW) will be on the cost order of what a solar PV installation costs today. The natural gas companies will REALLY push for use of the existing natural gas lines to use this technology and to have distributed energy as a norm. These fuel cells will be essentially 100% efficient as waste heat will be used to supply to house (in winter) as well as to heat water. Regardless, look to a maintenance of the PV tax credit (perhaps even expanded), but a brou ha ha of a battle between central and distributed energy essentially pitting natural gas companies against major electric utilities. A winner will be those utilities that have their foot in both camps. In Oklahoma, Oklahoma Natural Gas and Electric (OGE) will be one of the first to embrace this. This will also be helpful as local neighborhood electric distribution "pods" (think local "networks") will become the norm allowing far more secure service during storms, etc. It also allows for simple rerouting around the point of calamity. Brave new world! Steve __________________ consulting on geothermal heating/cooling & rational energy use since 1990 Last edited by stevehull; 07-19-14 at 10:57 AM..

07-20-14, 07:29 AM	#7
OffGridKindaGuy Hi-Tech Hillbilly Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 97 Thanks: 1 Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts	If it was left to the private sector, I believe that advancements in local production would have been more than what they are now. The Government took control and made everyone fat and happy without responsibility, hence, hindering development.. They created the monster, "somewhat" accept local production, and want to control that also! If you have a legal grid tie system, you're registered like a sex offender! Rural Electrification __________________ If it don't, I'll always think it shoulda..

07-20-14, 08:09 AM	#9
OffGridKindaGuy Hi-Tech Hillbilly Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 97 Thanks: 1 Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts	If the supplies were always "Limited", imagine the advancements in efficiencies of appliances and such that we would have today! This factor only became an issue after rolling brown outs started happening and it was discovered that the existing system wasn't sufficient to cover the loads.. __________________ If it don't, I'll always think it shoulda..

07-18-14, 09:20 PM	#3
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	I am grandfathered until 2020 but after that I might be looking at going off grid. I still hope EV batteries will be cost effective at that time.

07-19-14, 09:29 AM	#4
NeilBlanchard Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth Posts: 383 Thanks: 78 Thanked 39 Times in 32 Posts	I think that it will go back in the direction of more renewables, again. Solar PV in particular is supported by people across the political spectrum - precisely because it is independent.

07-20-14, 07:41 AM	#8
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	I know a lot of home owners like add some solar. Then add some more as fund's allow. But we are required the pay a 100 fee for each change and have it inspected. That adds up pretty fast.