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Old 03-10-14, 08:25 PM   #11
Servicetech
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The more I read about tankless, the more I'm convinced to keep my old tank storage heater. They last for years, provide even water temps, are simple devices that work in power outage. Repair parts are readily avalible at reasonable cost. Current gas costs are cheap, I'm not seeing a reasonable payback time to go tankless. It seems the only advantages of tankless are size and endless hot water.

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Old 03-10-14, 09:11 PM   #12
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Servicetech,

I have had a Aquastar 170 VP for over 20 years and it is just superb! Have had to replace one thermocouple and had to adjust the pilot light a few times, but no biggie.

I agree with AC that these tankless units are clearly the way to go - BUT you must buy quality. With three kids it has paid for itself many, many times over.

Tank units just do not last more than about ten years (in my opinion). They are less efficient, have standing water temp loss, etc, etc, etc.

What am I missing?

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Old 03-11-14, 01:11 AM   #13
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I agree with AC that these tankless units are clearly the way to go...
Well, I have to agree with Steve, and further amplify by agreeing even more with myself...

I actually ran some numbers, and on an ongoing use basis (discounting the fact that a quality demand heater is built to last way longer than a tank heater), there are a couple of situations where a tankless really has an advantage...

...one is where there is a biggish family with children and lots of laundry loads and many many showers... then the no-recovery time is just great.

...the other is at the opposite end of the spectrum, when there is infrequent requirement for hot water. Then the long periods of inactivity are also long periods when there is no standing tank loss, because there is no tank.

And as to Servicetech's comments on tankless payback, it is important thing to remember that he lives in an area (Western Frackopolis) where nat gas prices are cheaper than in just about any place in the country.

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Old 03-11-14, 05:49 AM   #14
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Gas is VERY cheap here, thanks in part to the $345/yr in customer/meter charges. During summer we use about 15 therms @ 50 cents per therm. $7.50/mo pays for water heater, dryer, stove, grill. Lets say $5 of the gas bill per month is for the water heater ($60/yr) and a tankless saves half ($30/yr). A quality tankless costs $1,200 to install once SS venting or a condensing model is purchased. A tank water heater is $400. Tankless lasts 20yrs vs. 10yrs for a tank (although my current tank is 15yrs old). Over 20yrs you would spend $1,200 vs $800 in water heaters and save $600 in gas. Net savings for tankless $200 over 20yrs, or about $10/yr on a $1,200 investment.

Do a like the idea of tankless, the space they save, and think they are cool? You betcha. Are they a good investmnet? Not so sure. You can thank the fact we pay a good portion of our energy costs in our taxes instead of utility bills for the lack of ROI on tankless water heaters. If energy costs were more closely tied to use tankless starts making a lot more sense. Perhaps that's why they are so popular in the rest of the world.
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Old 03-23-14, 09:33 AM   #15
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Wow, your gas is about 1/3 our cost. No wonder you cannot decide easily. The problem is that there is no financial incentive for you to be green.
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Old 03-23-14, 10:14 AM   #16
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Wow, your gas is about 1/3 our cost. No wonder you cannot decide easily. The problem is that there is no financial incentive for you to be green.
Government energy subsidies run rampant in the USA, paid for by our tax dollars. It would make so much more sense for energy costs to be reflected in utility bills instead of our tax bills, but that's "inhumane" and a "war on the poor" (The bottom 40% pay no income taxes in the USA).

It also doesn't hurt that we produce more natural gas in Oklahoma than we use. Gas is cheap, it's the delivery infrastructure that costs.

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Old 03-23-14, 10:28 AM   #17
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We have govt subsidies here too but much of it pays for our socialized health care, and less towards subsidizing fuel. The bottom 25-30% of Canadians don't pay income taxes either.
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Old 03-23-14, 10:39 AM   #18
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We have govt subsidies here too but much of it pays for our socialized health care, and less towards subsidizing fuel. The bottom 25-30% of Canadians don't pay income taxes either.
We're paying for the socialized health care through the Medicare/Medicaid program, but it's something only the elderly and bottom 40% are entitled to. It's the 2nd only to Social Security in USA, it even exceeds the amount spent on national defense.
Policy Basics: Where Do Our Federal Tax Dollars Go? — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
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Old 03-23-14, 10:46 AM   #19
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Where as ours is open to everyone and has no caps on the cost of your illness. We don't need to worry about health care insurance. It is still a big budget item but the US (hospitals, govt and insurance companies) spends a high portion of the insurance money on admin. We don't need to do that because the money is not counted per person. It is all pooled.
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Old 03-30-14, 08:50 AM   #20
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I'm reconsidering a Marey due to the HUGE price differnce in installed cost vs. a modualting heater. Modulating heaters require SS venting which pushes the installed cost close to a condensing water heater. Marey 10L plus venting/moving gas line is $325 (about $75 cheaper than tank heater) vs. $1,000+ for a modulating water heater. The numbers actually make sense !!

Marey could be located about 10' closer to point of use since it requires no condensate drain line. Bringing the WH indoors into conditioned space would be required since there is no built in freeze protection, and manual gas adjustments need to be readily accessible. 4" B vent can be obtained locally at reasonable cost.

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