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Old 09-24-10, 07:28 AM   #1
Daox
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Default Is Freedom from Foreign Oil a Worthy Goal?

I realized this is an American oriented article, but its an issue for almost all countries.

I don't think we have to be completely independent, but our current reliance is completely unacceptable. The incredible usage (read waste) that we have here is ridiculous. So many simple and easy things could lower our energy consumption. Why is it so hard to get people to even make simple small changes?

Is Freedom from Foreign Oil a Worthy Goal? – Red, Green, and Blue

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Old 09-24-10, 09:10 AM   #2
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Cause people are lazy and don't like change. Especially if it's something hard. It has to be easy or they won't do it. For example...and I'm going pretty extreme on this one but you'll get my drift...99.9% of people aren't willing to take a car and retrofit it with something that will turn it into a hydro/electric/whatever type of efficient car. Not even if it's a simple fix to your existing vehicle. They want the car to already be set up as electric, they want it to be cheap, they want it to run in the weather conditions they live in, and they want it to be able to drive just as far as their old vehicle. If they don't get these things, they don't care. They'll just purchase another gas vehicle. It's almost the same reason I didn't buy a hybrid last time. The weather we have isn't that great on the battery life. They need to test these cars in Canada where they can test the batteries on our brutally cold weather. Also I need something that will fit my kids and have enough trunk space for groceries and the hybrid's were just a bit too tight.

In order for us to change, the big corporations need to change first. Without them changing for the better, things will go on the same way. They're finally starting to change, but it's always small changes at a time. Like Nissan and the Leaf. I think Nissan is one of the company's that are really doing a good job at pushing the more efficient cars out there. Even their commercials now are pushing you to buy the Leaf and get away from the fuel sucking cars we buy now. I think if Nissan can pull it off, they'll be the new leaders in the car business.

That's my opinion anyway. And that's from me listening to people in my company and my family talk about their opinions on it.
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Old 09-24-10, 04:01 PM   #3
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To answer the titular question, no. There's no correlation between how much you produce, and how much you ought to consume. Even net oil exporters should try hard to conserve oil, because every drop not burned locally is a drop that can be sold overseas.

I'm much more interested in how much it's costing us, than which countries it comes from. I'd like to see the US reverse our trade deficit, and cutting back on oil would be a huge step in the right direction. If wealthy countries like Germany and Japan can run a trade surplus, so can we, especially given our agricultural and mineral exports.

But if they meant the specific case of the US in 2015 or 2020 producing enough oil to meet our needs... it's a goal that would move us in the right direction despite being totally unattainable. We're importing half of our current needs, readily exploitable oil production peaked four decades ago, and our population continues to grow.
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Old 09-24-10, 05:27 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daox View Post
Why is it so hard to get people to even make simple small changes?
Incrementalism. You boil the frog by raising the temperature slowly, so that it doesn't notice or doesn't care. They do the same with prices on everything. People don't care if gas or bread or milk prices went up one cent this week (and doubled in a year or two). But if they doubled overnight changes would happen very quickly (the frog would jump out of the pot).
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Old 09-24-10, 07:33 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daox View Post
I realized this is an American oriented article, but its an issue for almost all countries.
I think this is such an important topic that whatever else is in second place is hardly visible.

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Is Freedom from Foreign Oil a Worthy Goal?
My first concern would be: Is it possible.

I agree with everything everyone has said so far, with the exception of "...people are lazy and don't like change...".

Given our economic system and the stress that most people are subjected to it is extremely difficult and very expensive to change, to really change.

On a larger scale, I am convinced that there is a one-to-one correspondence between energy supply and the ability to mine, manufacture, transport, grow (as in agriculture), invent, build or wage war. In other words, our entire industrial society (not just North America, but the whole world) runs as fast as the oil is supplied. We are entirely dependent on it.

Our economic system assumes growth. A good way to be when energy sipplies are growing.

When money is borrowed and paid back with interest, growth is assumed to make it all possible.

More growth means more consumption, more destruction of resources, more waste and more energy.

So our economic system is like a shark that must keep swimming or else it dies. When our economic system dies, it will not be gentle and it will not be easy for anyone.

I think we are seeing the beginnings of this already, with the economic collapse of 2008, which hit the whole world.

None of the politicians are talking about the looming global energy shortage. They know that their electorate wants promises of a better, richer future, so they give it to them (us). But they know about the future prospects of our energy supply, they know that energy supplies will begin to go negative within the decade, probably sooner. But they won't talk about it.

When energy supplies go negative, so does growth, so does credit, so do the wheels of commerce and the wheels of agriculture.

Soon, very soon.

This is why EcoRenovation is so very important now.

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Old 09-26-10, 09:06 AM   #6
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There are more reasons why it is important to get away from foriegn oil, and reasons why it won't happen.

1. The United States gets most of its oil from Saudi Arabia. The money for that oil goes into the pockets of the ruling Princes in SA. Those princes are Whabbaist Islamics. Those same Princes are funding Al Qaida, the Taliban, and other radical Islamic groups. Based on their beliefs, these groups are bound to destroy western culture. It is vital to stop supplying these organizations with the funds they need to destroy our way of life.

2. The economy has been discussed, but it is important to reiterate the fact that all manufactoring uses petroleum to some extent. Over 80% of the products made worldwide have some petroleum derivitive in it. 100% of all products (including food) uses petroleum in some stage of its production. Until there is another readily available source of energy that is easily used to replace oil, it will be nearly impossible to get rid of foreign oil.

Some of the reasons this will not happen.

1. People do not want to do the work themselves. They want what they want, when they want it. The age of people trying to improve their own lives through innovation is mostly over. The want to make things better for those around them is all but completely gone.

2. Large corporations that make money through the use of oil will not allow politicians to implement the laws necessary to make a conversion away from oil until they can figure a way to make money from it while squeezing every last dollar from the oil in the process.
for example, fuel cell vehicles: Where is the hydrogen for the fuel cells coming from? Oil. We are not getting away from oil, just seeing it in a different from. The oil companies will be supplying the hydrogen by cracking the oil molecules (which is a long Hydrocarbon chain) and extracting the hydrogen for sale to the public.
The politicians want their money too. Ultimately they don't care about passing laws that benefit the public (recent health care coverage, economic stimulus, and other legistlation are examples), they are more interested in providing for themselves both in office and afterwards.

Just some of my thoughts, but until the public, and our elected leaders are willing to do their jobs and put the welfare of the nation above their petty personal desires we are not going to gain any independence from oil.
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Old 09-26-10, 10:24 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sularus65 View Post
There are more reasons why it is important to get away from foriegn oil, and reasons why it won't happen.

1. The United States gets most of its oil from Saudi Arabia. The money for that oil goes into the pockets of the ruling Princes in SA. Those princes are Whabbaist Islamics. Those same Princes are funding Al Qaida, the Taliban, and other radical Islamic groups. Based on their beliefs, these groups are bound to destroy western culture. It is vital to stop supplying these organizations with the funds they need to destroy our way of life.
Actually, Canada is the largest source of foreign oil for the US. Saudia Arabia and Mexico are distant 2nd and 3rd places.

Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries

However, the US is still paying the world price for oil of which Saudia Arabia has great ability to influence. This is the supply side of the equation.
Quote:

2. The economy has been discussed, but it is important to reiterate the fact that all manufactoring uses petroleum to some extent. Over 80% of the products made worldwide have some petroleum derivitive in it. 100% of all products (including food) uses petroleum in some stage of its production. Until there is another readily available source of energy that is easily used to replace oil, it will be nearly impossible to get rid of foreign oil.
This is the demand side of the equation. The US is simply too reliant on cheap energy.
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Old 09-26-10, 11:31 AM   #8
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I stand corrected, but it really does not make me feel that much better. Canada is following the European model of passing laws conforming to Sharia law. There is an ever increasing population boom of Muslim immigrants into Canada. Wherever there is a large population of Muslims, there is a concentration of Islamic charities which do the same thing as the Saudi Princes, or worse. It is very common for charities to open Madrassas. These religious schools are known to teach a radical form of Islam, which leads to polarization against western cultures.
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Old 09-26-10, 11:54 AM   #9
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Have you been to Canada lately? It's hardly a radical Muslim nation.

If anything, the mixing of Western and Middle Eastern culture in America, Canada, and Europe has the net effect of liberalizing Islam worldwide.

However, if you were the welcoming committee for these new immigrants and their children, they might not feel comfortable sending their children to western public schools.
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Old 09-26-10, 05:01 PM   #10
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nope, just been to that part of the world and seen what the oil money directly funds. Also seen the effect of Islamic Charities and lobbyists have on policy making in Europe, Canada an the United States. Don't be fooled, their jihad is not just about fighting with arms. They will, and are, fighting western culture by using our own capatilism, and laws against us.

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