Propane (R-290) for heat pumps?

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by ICanHas

Efficiency is work out vs work in, but it's only realistic if compromises aren't made...

"Efficiency is work out vs work in."

This is barely correct.

"but it's only realistic if compromises aren't made."

I'm afraid you are trying to redefine physics.

Good luck.

-AC

[ICanHas]

Let's use efficacy instead.

Ability to produce desired output vs the input = efficacy.
efficiency... kilowatts into the motor, kilowatts available at the shaft.

It's not the propane that's more efficacious.

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by ICanHas

Ability to produce desired output vs the input = efficacy.

The definition of efficiency is:

"Efficiency is work out divided by work in."

The definition of efficacy is:

"Efficacy is the capacity to produce an effect."

Your definition is something you have dreamed up.

It is not a term that is recognized in physics.

You are trying to concatenate the definition of efficiency and the definition of capacity. They are not the same.

Since you dreamed up your definition, it's not at all surprising that you would agree with it.

What is surprising is that you would expect anyone else to agree with it.

In other words ICanHas, the efficacy of your argument = zero

Sincerely,

-AC

[gtojohn]

Exergy efficiency and irreversibility comparison of R22, R134a, R290 and R407C to replace R22 in an air conditioning system - ResearchGate

Page 5, Coefficiency of performance. Yes r209 has more cooling capability than r22. Please remember in refrigeration the refrigerant does a lot of the work. Some refrigerants have more btu capacity per pound. R-12 has a greater cop than 134a. My thoughts on bbq gas, the impurities might diminish your cooling gains. 2 lbs or propane probably won't blow your house up. a 1 lb container is the same as the pint sized soldering tanks. I blew a full one up near an open flame with my .22, nice fire ball, but nothing earth moving like tannerite.

[AC_Hacker]

BTW, gtojohn, I just discovered that if you wish to capture the public domain document that you linked to, without paying Springer, just right-click on each individual page image and either 'save' or 'print', which ever suits your need.

-AC

[ICanHas]

Originally Posted by gtojohn

Exergy efficiency and irreversibility comparison of R22, R134a, R290 and R407C to replace R22 in an air conditioning system - ResearchGate

Page 5, Coefficiency of performance. Yes r209 has more cooling capability t
than r22. Please remember in refrigeration the refrigerant does a lot of the work. Some refrigerants have more btu capacity per pound. R-12 has a greater cop than 134a.

If you look at the COP figure, you'll see the COP of propane is a close tie with R-22 in -15 to 5C range. The -15C and lower is the temperature range typical for a freezer, so your source is consistent with the paper I uploaded earlier that propane starts catching up in low evaporation temperature below 17F.

There are reasons why R-502 was preferred over R-22 as a freezer refrigerant like better performance at low box temperature.

Page 7 in conclusion
http://www.abcm.org.br/pt/wp-content...M2005-1042.pdf
"According to the results, the hydrocarbon that presented better performance for R22 substitution, in the range of
temperatures analyzed, was R600a. The propane presents for the same range of temperature a lightly inferior
performance, but comparable to R134a."

My thoughts on bbq gas, the impurities might diminish your cooling gains. 2 lbs or propane probably won't blow your house up. a 1 lb container is the same as the pint sized soldering tanks. I blew a full one up near an open flame with my .22, nice fire ball, but nothing earth moving like tannerite.

Yeah, but you did it out in the open field. You didn't let it fill a confined space and mix with air, then ignite it. Think for second how your .22 works. It involves burning and suddenly building pressures of gun powder combustion in a confined space. If you emptied the powder and lit it out in the open, it wouldn't do much.

A pound of propane expands to about 245 liters and since propane is explosive in 2 to 8% range, so it can make about 100-400 cu.ft of space explosive. Hmmm, so how about 2-3 lbs of propane getting dumped in your attic or laundry room and finding source of ignition from the unit itself?

There's only two ounces or so of hydrocarbon in refrigerators that make use of it. That is enough to become explosive relative to the volume of the interior. Here's an example of Samsung refrigerator that lost the charge inside the box and ignited from electrical parts inside. This is just one of the many such incidents.

[Xringer]

Wow! That must have woke up the whole neighborhood!

In order to avoid the FAE effects of propane, I moved all those little plumbing bottles out of my basement.

They are now in the garage. No place for heavy gas to pool and accumulate.
Being a bit above ground level, any leaking propane will
escape into the great outdoors and drift downhill to the swamp and woods..

Of course, if the leak is a fast one, all bets are off..
Press the remote to open one of the garage doors, and BOOM?

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by ICanHas

...This is just one of the many such incidents.

Yeah, my wife left our kitchen like that too, when she "left to see her mother".

-AC

[ICanHas]

Usually flammable gas incidents are a result of a leak filling up a space without knowledge and finding a source of ignition.

Originally Posted by Xringer

Of course, if the leak is a fast one, all bets are off..
Press the remote to open one of the garage doors, and BOOM?

Possibility. Gasoline and propane tend to stagnate on the bottom like a fogging effect used on stage. Vapor blanket from spilled or leaking gasoline from one of those portable gas bottles and catching on fire in the water heater pilot is a fairly common accidents.

Vehicle gas tanks and propane cylinders are built much more securely and generally do not cause such issues.

Refrigerant recharge is one of the most common service calls for AC systems, because the refrigerant is lost due to a leak and I would place putting propane into an AC system similar to portable plastic gasoline jugs. Sometimes the lines can have a rub-through. What starts as a small superficial leak can become poof, dump entire charge.


That's the aftermath of @ home BHO making gone wrong. The quantity of LPG they were using was sufficient to build up to an explosive range. When there was an ignition, the entire space burned and blew the wall off. You'll need 8-9 big lighter fluid refills worth of propane to work a common residential slit system, which I'd say is in the BHO lab type quantities.

If you had a leak in your system, that could be your house the next time it switches on.

This is a refrigeration tech's car after the hydrocarbon service torch fuel leaked in his car and found a source of ignition.

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by ICanHas

Usually flammable gas incidents are a result of a leak filling up a space without knowledge and finding a source of ignition.

But then you illustrate your post with photos that have nothing at all to do with your point.

What are you trying to say?

What do these disconnected photos have to do with this thread?

If you just want explosion photos...

EXPLOSION PHOTOS

-AC