My "10 year project": rebuilding an efficient "tiny" crooked house in Canada - Page 6

Daox · 12-06-12, 06:56 AM

Looks like you have a lot of work ahead of you!

MN Renovator · 12-08-12, 07:57 PM

I've always wondered why fiberglass was sold in a size short of filling the wall cavity. Was it just not that important of a consideration back in the day or was fiberglass more expensive then. Fiberglass and cellulose insulation are so cheap today.

What are your plans for the cavity, pull the existing fiberglass and replace with the same? Cellulose? Have you had any chance to quantify the rough amount of cellulose in the attic yet.

What sort of wiring is in the house now? Cloth backed 2-wire or something else?

MetroMPG · 12-10-12, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MN Renovator

What are your plans for the cavity, pull the existing fiberglass and replace with the same? Cellulose?

I'm going to expand the existing 2x4 cavity toward the inside, to at least 2x6. I may also add rigid foam on the outside (but haven't investigated yet).

I understand that cellulose is the best R value for the buck, and so will probably use that.

Quote:

Have you had any chance to quantify the rough amount of cellulose in the attic yet

It's about 12 inches.

Quote:

What sort of wiring is in the house now? Cloth backed 2-wire or something else?

It's a dog's breakfast: some modern 3-wire, some 2-wire. Past evidence of knob & tube in the attic of the original part of the house (since replaced, of course).

EDIT: and the main breaker panel is rated 100 amps. That's better than the old 60 Amp service the insurance companies don't seem to like that are common in old houses. This house has had a few electrical upgrades since it was built.

S-F · 12-11-12, 05:58 PM

You've gotta be sharp on that k&t in the attic. It gets hot and doesn't work with cellulose. I've seen on more than one occasion charred cellulose in contact with k&t. It won't actually catch on fire of course, but something might. Better safe than sorry.

MetroMPG · 12-11-12, 06:10 PM

Oh, the knob & tube is now defunct - it was replaced with the 2-wire stuff. Just a bunch of knobs left up there.

S-F · 12-11-12, 06:39 PM

Nice. Take at least one of the tubes to use for sharpening knives.

Exeric · 12-11-12, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

I'm going to expand the existing 2x4 cavity toward the inside, to at least 2x6. I may also add rigid foam on the outside (but haven't investigated yet).

Good idea. I'm doing something similar currently with my house but without the foam. Since I live in California I'm just trying to cure all the thermal bridging going through my 2x4 stud walls. It's an older house like yours with lots of historical modifications. Some walls seem like they're practically all 2x4 with no space between them. Gotta fix that.

I'm currently just buying 2x4s and splitting them in two. Those 2x2s (dimensioned) are just getting nailed to new 2x2 bottom and top plates. But I'm staggering laterally the new 2x2 studs from the existing 2x4 studs as much as possible to avoid most of the bridging. There won't really be a gap between the new framing and the old as far as front to back goes. I think 2x2s are too flimsy to not be tied directly to window and door framing. Hence, no gap there and directly screwed to existing framing at those points. Where the 2x2 studs are located between existing 2x4 studs the 2x2s are screwed to the fireblocking between the 2x4 studs. That makes the use of 2x2s pretty strong. I'll be putting cellulose in mine also behind netting.

I should post some pictures one of these days since it might end op being similar to what you will be doing with your framing.

best,

Exeric · 12-13-12, 03:29 PM

One more thought on extending the framing. You could go with a Larson truss type of arrangement where there is actually a significant gap between exterior and interior framing. The balance one has to seek is the amount of interior space you are willing to give up. Since your house is already small you might not want to intrude into it more than you have to.

On the other hand since you live in a cold climate you might want to have more depth front to back than what I'm doing. Something similar to what Daox did with his office is an option. He used 2x4 interior framing with a tiny gap between interior and exterior framing to lessen the intrusion into living space.

A modification that lies between both his and my options would be to use 2x2 interior framing with a 2 inch gap between exterior and interior framing. That would intrude into the interior space 4 inches but give greater freedom from thermal bridging than either my or Daox's method. This would be more of the traditional Larson truss type of construction, if I understand it correctly.

On the other hand, if you really plan on putting exterior insulation in sometime I would forego everything I've just said and just put at least 4" of iso foam board on the outside. Much easier to seal with no electrical boxes etc to cut into and seal and insulate around. I know, decisions, decisions, decisions!

creeky · 12-17-12, 01:06 PM

I think the mystery box must have held a tv, back in the day. when they were really really heavy. certainly you see the same tv/fridge setup in older homes.
MetroMPG it looks like you live in my neck of the woods. There's a guy on Kijiji selling used 4x8 by 1.5" sheets of exterior iso for 10 bucks a sheet. he lets you cherry pick. some are so riddled with intrusions they look and feel like swiss cheese. Others are mint... If you'd like to follow up on Exeric's suggestion of exterior insulation ...

creeky · 12-20-12, 06:00 PM

have to add ... vis a vis your comment about two wire and three wire electrical wiring ...
I'm wiring my "studio" right now and a girlfriend gave me her copy of the 2010 electrical code book for ontario (canada). really good reference. 2011 adds some new arc fault requirements...
2 wire carries power to unswitched power plugs and to switched lights. one switch. one light. three wire carries two circuits of power/one neutral. or more likely. switched lights/power plugs. an example would be switches at the top and bottom of stairs uses three wire. or power plugs that are switched at the bottom plug and the top plug is always live. okay. i haven't seen this example ... but
so to see two wire and three wire is a sign your house has been wired correctly ... or at least to code.

12-06-12, 06:56 AM	#51
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	Looks like you have a lot of work ahead of you! __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

12-11-12, 06:10 PM	#55
MetroMPG Infrequent noob Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: 1000 Islands region, Ontario, Canada Posts: 402 Thanks: 37 Thanked 20 Times in 19 Posts	Oh, the knob & tube is now defunct - it was replaced with the 2-wire stuff. Just a bunch of knobs left up there. __________________ . To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

12-08-12, 07:57 PM	#52
MN Renovator Less usage=Cheaper bills Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 939 Thanks: 41 Thanked 116 Times in 90 Posts	I've always wondered why fiberglass was sold in a size short of filling the wall cavity. Was it just not that important of a consideration back in the day or was fiberglass more expensive then. Fiberglass and cellulose insulation are so cheap today. What are your plans for the cavity, pull the existing fiberglass and replace with the same? Cellulose? Have you had any chance to quantify the rough amount of cellulose in the attic yet. What sort of wiring is in the house now? Cloth backed 2-wire or something else?

12-13-12, 03:29 PM	#58
Exeric Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: California Posts: 274 Thanks: 19 Thanked 37 Times in 28 Posts	One more thought on extending the framing. You could go with a Larson truss type of arrangement where there is actually a significant gap between exterior and interior framing. The balance one has to seek is the amount of interior space you are willing to give up. Since your house is already small you might not want to intrude into it more than you have to. On the other hand since you live in a cold climate you might want to have more depth front to back than what I'm doing. Something similar to what Daox did with his office is an option. He used 2x4 interior framing with a tiny gap between interior and exterior framing to lessen the intrusion into living space. A modification that lies between both his and my options would be to use 2x2 interior framing with a 2 inch gap between exterior and interior framing. That would intrude into the interior space 4 inches but give greater freedom from thermal bridging than either my or Daox's method. This would be more of the traditional Larson truss type of construction, if I understand it correctly. On the other hand, if you really plan on putting exterior insulation in sometime I would forego everything I've just said and just put at least 4" of iso foam board on the outside. Much easier to seal with no electrical boxes etc to cut into and seal and insulate around. I know, decisions, decisions, decisions!

12-17-12, 01:06 PM	#59
creeky Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: a field somewhere Posts: 304 Thanks: 64 Thanked 44 Times in 31 Posts	I think the mystery box must have held a tv, back in the day. when they were really really heavy. certainly you see the same tv/fridge setup in older homes. MetroMPG it looks like you live in my neck of the woods. There's a guy on Kijiji selling used 4x8 by 1.5" sheets of exterior iso for 10 bucks a sheet. he lets you cherry pick. some are so riddled with intrusions they look and feel like swiss cheese. Others are mint... If you'd like to follow up on Exeric's suggestion of exterior insulation ...

12-20-12, 06:00 PM	#60
creeky Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: a field somewhere Posts: 304 Thanks: 64 Thanked 44 Times in 31 Posts	have to add ... vis a vis your comment about two wire and three wire electrical wiring ... I'm wiring my "studio" right now and a girlfriend gave me her copy of the 2010 electrical code book for ontario (canada). really good reference. 2011 adds some new arc fault requirements... 2 wire carries power to unswitched power plugs and to switched lights. one switch. one light. three wire carries two circuits of power/one neutral. or more likely. switched lights/power plugs. an example would be switches at the top and bottom of stairs uses three wire. or power plugs that are switched at the bottom plug and the top plug is always live. okay. i haven't seen this example ... but so to see two wire and three wire is a sign your house has been wired correctly ... or at least to code.