Any trick to sizing a coaxial condensor?

Sccoupe · 06-09-17, 07:25 AM

---After getting a couple of geothermal holes drilled, I'd like to start testing/experimenting with some actual heat transfer. My initial thoughts were to replace the condenser of a window unit with a coaxial condenser and pump the water though while measuring temps. The question is, If I start with 12000btu window unit, do I just replace the air condenser with a 1 ton coaxial condenser? Is it this simple?
---Then I start thinking why only set this up for summer? Why not pickup a 1 ton portable heat pump to use year round? What gets me here is that they are 12000btu in cooling mode and 10000btu in heating mode. Does this still mean to use a 1 ton coaxial condenser?

Fordguy64 · 06-09-17, 08:05 AM

https://www.ebay.com/itm/251555614530
https://www.ebay.com/itm/191796804772

I'm not an expert on this yet.. But my understanding is that you should over size it slightly.. So if you have a 12k unit I would go for the 1.5 ton coil. But I would also look into flat plate heat exchanges. Those can be had cheaper in some cases. As long as you have a clean water supply and from the sounds of it you will have a closed look system with bore holes..

I'm sure the others will chime in shortly

Sccoupe · 06-09-17, 08:13 AM

The second link that you posted is the exact condenser that I have. So it sound like perhaps an 8000 or 10000 btu unit is what I should be aiming for. Is there any oil in an condenser that I need to be concerned with replacing after the condenser swap and recharge? I'll be storing the old coolant for the recharge, but not sure about how much oil is usually in the condenser and how to know if a unit needs more added.

digiz · 07-08-17, 03:52 PM

Make one.
Lauterbach Verfahrenstechnik GmbH - Software for thermal and hydraulic design of heat exchangers

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...html#post51805

---After getting a couple of geothermal holes drilled, I'd like to start testing/experimenting with some actual heat transfer. My initial thoughts were to replace the condenser of a window unit with a coaxial condenser and pump the water though while measuring temps. The question is, If I start with 12000btu window unit, do I just replace the air condenser with a 1 ton coaxial condenser? Is it this simple?
---Then I start thinking why only set this up for summer? Why not pickup a 1 ton portable heat pump to use year round? What gets me here is that they are 12000btu in cooling mode and 10000btu in heating mode. Does this still mean to use a 1 ton coaxial condenser?

jeff5may · 06-10-17, 07:09 AM

Here's your performance data:
https://packless.com/drawings/coil/performance/Classic

For as cheap as you paid for the one coil, you could buy another and gain maybe another 10 - 20 percent COP, and still spend less than the retail price on a new HX! With the operating parameters you posted, this coax coil should do as well as a prefab GSHP. Remember, though, that the HX must work against a decent DeltaT to transfer lots of heat. If there is not much difference of potential, the exchanger won't be very effective. More water flow is not always better. The literature shows the relationship precisely for your HX.

As far as oil, I wouldn't worry too much about it. If you didn't just poke a big hole in the circuit and spew foamy froth everywhere, most of the oil will still be in the compressor. Window units don't contain much extra oil in them, as the refrigeration circuit is small. The only oil that will leave the old unit is whatever tiny amount sticks to the walls of the old HX you remove.

Sccoupe · 06-10-17, 03:03 PM

I got the coaxial HX installed on an 8000btu window unit. Tested with a small 1gpm pump and a 5 gallon bucket of water and it heated the bucket to 125F in no time.
Waiting for a socket fusing unit to arrive monday ($39 shipped on ebay. Search pipe welding, not socket fusion) and then can get some pipes dropped into ground. Two 90 feet deep holes are done and water comes up to within 15 feet of the surface in both holes. Hopefully this will be enough to let the 8000btu AC help out this summer and further testing. The holes will need grouted with something, but havent figured what i'll do there yet.

AC_Hacker · 06-12-17, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sccoupe

---What gets me here is that they are 12000btu in cooling mode and 10000btu in heating mode. Does this still mean to use a 1 ton coaxial condenser?

If it were me, I would go with a Brazed Plate HX. Not so expensive, very efficient, small, and the engineering data is abundant. Brazed plates work great in a closed-loop system that you have.

The 12K cooling/10k heating is a written confession of inefficiency.

Heating is always more efficient than cooling, because the heat energy of the compressor is folded into the output, whereas in cooling, the unit needs to rid itself of the compressor heat to deliver cooling.

Says to me that the HXs were grossly undersized to provide optimum heating.

Best,

-AC_Hacker

Sccoupe · 06-30-17, 12:31 PM

As I learn more about this stuff it just brings up more questions.

So, lets say I select an extra large water HX for a window unit. It does well to get rid of the heat into the ground loop. Now we add a reversing valve and our extra large condenser becomes an extra large evaporator, correct? Does this not mess up the super heat that took so much time to get right in the A/C operation?

jeff5may · 06-30-17, 09:58 PM

Nope. In the reverse cycle, your metering device will be regulating the superheat the same way as before. If you're using a capillary tube, it will allow the same flow in the reverse direction. I myself love TXV metering devices. However, if you employ tx valves, there needs to be one for each heat exchanger. These either have internal check valves or need check valves plumbed across them, to bypass the txv for the heat exchanger being used as a condenser.

Sccoupe · 07-01-17, 05:45 AM

Ok, this makes sense now. None of the heat pump google diagrams that i've seen so far show two metering devices. However a search for two txv's brought up some info on heat pumps having an indoor metering device and an outdoor metering device with check valves for each. Some it seems use a TXV outside and a cap tube on the inside.

With two metering devices, it doesnt seem that having exactly 'matching' HX's is all that important though one still wouldnt want a 5 ton outdoor HX with a 2 ton indoor HX.

Thanks

06-09-17, 07:25 AM	#1
Sccoupe Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: May 2017 Location: PA Posts: 43 Thanks: 4 Thanked 16 Times in 8 Posts	Any trick to sizing a coaxial condensor? ---After getting a couple of geothermal holes drilled, I'd like to start testing/experimenting with some actual heat transfer. My initial thoughts were to replace the condenser of a window unit with a coaxial condenser and pump the water though while measuring temps. The question is, If I start with 12000btu window unit, do I just replace the air condenser with a 1 ton coaxial condenser? Is it this simple? ---Then I start thinking why only set this up for summer? Why not pickup a 1 ton portable heat pump to use year round? What gets me here is that they are 12000btu in cooling mode and 10000btu in heating mode. Does this still mean to use a 1 ton coaxial condenser?

06-30-17, 09:58 PM	#9
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,428 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	Nope. In the reverse cycle, your metering device will be regulating the superheat the same way as before. If you're using a capillary tube, it will allow the same flow in the reverse direction. I myself love TXV metering devices. However, if you employ tx valves, there needs to be one for each heat exchanger. These either have internal check valves or need check valves plumbed across them, to bypass the txv for the heat exchanger being used as a condenser. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by jeff5may; 07-01-17 at 01:01 PM.. Reason: pictures

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06-09-17, 08:05 AM	#2
Fordguy64 Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Cincinnati ohio Posts: 338 Thanks: 40 Thanked 35 Times in 31 Posts	https://www.ebay.com/itm/251555614530 https://www.ebay.com/itm/191796804772 I'm not an expert on this yet.. But my understanding is that you should over size it slightly.. So if you have a 12k unit I would go for the 1.5 ton coil. But I would also look into flat plate heat exchanges. Those can be had cheaper in some cases. As long as you have a clean water supply and from the sounds of it you will have a closed look system with bore holes.. I'm sure the others will chime in shortly

06-09-17, 08:13 AM	#3
Sccoupe Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: May 2017 Location: PA Posts: 43 Thanks: 4 Thanked 16 Times in 8 Posts	The second link that you posted is the exact condenser that I have. So it sound like perhaps an 8000 or 10000 btu unit is what I should be aiming for. Is there any oil in an condenser that I need to be concerned with replacing after the condenser swap and recharge? I'll be storing the old coolant for the recharge, but not sure about how much oil is usually in the condenser and how to know if a unit needs more added.

07-08-17, 03:52 PM	#4
digiz Lurking Renovator Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: EU Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Make one. Lauterbach Verfahrenstechnik GmbH - Software for thermal and hydraulic design of heat exchangers http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...html#post51805 ---After getting a couple of geothermal holes drilled, I'd like to start testing/experimenting with some actual heat transfer. My initial thoughts were to replace the condenser of a window unit with a coaxial condenser and pump the water though while measuring temps. The question is, If I start with 12000btu window unit, do I just replace the air condenser with a 1 ton coaxial condenser? Is it this simple? ---Then I start thinking why only set this up for summer? Why not pickup a 1 ton portable heat pump to use year round? What gets me here is that they are 12000btu in cooling mode and 10000btu in heating mode. Does this still mean to use a 1 ton coaxial condenser?

06-10-17, 03:03 PM	#6
Sccoupe Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: May 2017 Location: PA Posts: 43 Thanks: 4 Thanked 16 Times in 8 Posts	I got the coaxial HX installed on an 8000btu window unit. Tested with a small 1gpm pump and a 5 gallon bucket of water and it heated the bucket to 125F in no time. Waiting for a socket fusing unit to arrive monday ($39 shipped on ebay. Search pipe welding, not socket fusion) and then can get some pipes dropped into ground. Two 90 feet deep holes are done and water comes up to within 15 feet of the surface in both holes. Hopefully this will be enough to let the 8000btu AC help out this summer and further testing. The holes will need grouted with something, but havent figured what i'll do there yet.

06-30-17, 12:31 PM	#8
Sccoupe Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: May 2017 Location: PA Posts: 43 Thanks: 4 Thanked 16 Times in 8 Posts	As I learn more about this stuff it just brings up more questions. So, lets say I select an extra large water HX for a window unit. It does well to get rid of the heat into the ground loop. Now we add a reversing valve and our extra large condenser becomes an extra large evaporator, correct? Does this not mess up the super heat that took so much time to get right in the A/C operation?

07-01-17, 05:45 AM	#10
Sccoupe Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: May 2017 Location: PA Posts: 43 Thanks: 4 Thanked 16 Times in 8 Posts	Ok, this makes sense now. None of the heat pump google diagrams that i've seen so far show two metering devices. However a search for two txv's brought up some info on heat pumps having an indoor metering device and an outdoor metering device with check valves for each. Some it seems use a TXV outside and a cap tube on the inside. With two metering devices, it doesnt seem that having exactly 'matching' HX's is all that important though one still wouldnt want a 5 ton outdoor HX with a 2 ton indoor HX. Thanks