Replacement for R-12

Fathompin · 10-01-21, 02:22 PM

Edit: I meant R-22 in the title. Apologies for typing without thinking much about this question:

I'm using a new-old-stock Climate Master geothermal unit that has always leaked a little Freon. With the price of R-22 refrigerant, I was wondering about the various R-22 replacements available. Anyone have experience replacing R-22 refrigerant? I don't know what on-line literature I can trust.

Thanks in advance

pinballlooking · 10-01-21, 06:39 PM

Are you sure you do not mean r-12 refrigerant

Fathompin · 10-02-21, 12:16 AM

Edit: I was wrong twice, and edited my original question (quite a bit late unfortunately). I was meaning R22 as in HVAC not Automotive. I didn't get out the gate very well with that question did I?

NiHaoMike · 10-02-21, 06:45 PM

R433b is pretty close to a drop in replacement, it will require tweaking the TXV to perform its best so make sure the TXV is adjustable first.

CarbonKevin · 11-10-21, 01:31 PM

Check out R-290, aka Propane. It's a good replacement for R-12 and R-22 (not sure why you haven't edited your original post, I'm still not clear on which one you're actually asking about). I've been running it in my home system for two years now, and aside from needing to increase fan speed due to R-290 being higher performing than the system's original refrigerant, it's been trouble free.

BradC · 11-10-21, 09:44 PM

Please don't use straight Propane in an R12 system. The appropriate blend to replace R12 is about 40% R660a (iso-butane) and 60% R290 (propane).

In this chart OZ-12 is the 40/60 blend. Watch the pressures. Because I like a perverse mix of country units, Y axis is pressure in PSI and X axis is temperature in degrees Centigrade.

Not butane. Iso-butane.

88xj · 11-10-21, 09:45 PM

epa.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Choosing_Right_R22_Retrofit.pdf[/url]

There are a number of approved blends that can replace R22.
many of them are a mixture of R-32, R-125, R-134a and other refrigerants.
Some include R-290 in the mix as well.

R-407a
R-407c
R-421a
R-421b
R-422a
R-422b
R-422c

R-427a
R-428a
etc etc

R-410 which is not an approved substitute is a 50/50 mix of R-32 and R-125.
R-134a is also not an approved R22 substitute

R-407F which is approved is 30% R-32 30% R-125 and 40% R-134a

So the devil is in the details of the percentage of each in the mix. Which is why when using those blends you have to charge the system with liquid not vapor to try to keep the % of each the same as what was intended.

BradC · 11-10-21, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 88xj

Which is why when using those blends you have to charge the system with liquid not vapor to try to keep the % of each the same as what was intended.

Just to be ultra-pedantic, you can charge the system as a vapor but it must be withdrawn from the cylinder as a liquid.

R410a is not a substitute for R22. *ever*.

vwhead77 · 11-18-21, 08:57 PM

I've been using R407C in most of my retrofits. It's best to replace all of the mineral oil you can with POE (drain the compressor). I haven't had one bit of trouble with it and the pressures are very close to R22. Never had to adjust the TXV. One drawback is the most of the modern Refrigerants are getting phased out and getting very expensive. R290a is good choice as well since that is what will replace all of these "R22" systems in the near future. Please don't mess with it if that unit has a leak though - it's obviously very flammable and therefore dangerous if you don't have a tight system. I've experimented with it at home and it seems to work just fine. I've repaired newer R290a systems which are already on the market. the world is going back to Propane, Butane, Methane, Ammonia, and CO2- so we're basically full circle back 80 years.

PS - no matter what you use, fix the leak first

10-01-21, 02:22 PM	#1
Fathompin Lurking Renovator Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Dayton Ohio Posts: 12 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Replacement for R-12 Edit: I meant R-22 in the title. Apologies for typing without thinking much about this question: I'm using a new-old-stock Climate Master geothermal unit that has always leaked a little Freon. With the price of R-22 refrigerant, I was wondering about the various R-22 replacements available. Anyone have experience replacing R-22 refrigerant? I don't know what on-line literature I can trust. Thanks in advance Last edited by Fathompin; 11-15-21 at 02:38 PM.. Reason: I corrected my error in what refrigerant I was asking about

10-01-21, 06:39 PM	#2
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	Are you sure you do not mean r-12 refrigerant __________________ Current project Aquaponics system , Passive Solar Greenhouse build To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Solar Install 12.5 Kwh- To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Mini Split installs - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. EV Chevy Volt - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-02-21, 12:16 AM	#3
Fathompin Lurking Renovator Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Dayton Ohio Posts: 12 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Edit: I was wrong twice, and edited my original question (quite a bit late unfortunately). I was meaning R22 as in HVAC not Automotive. I didn't get out the gate very well with that question did I? Last edited by Fathompin; 11-15-21 at 02:40 PM.. Reason: I corrected my error in what refrigerant I was asking about

10-02-21, 06:45 PM	#4
NiHaoMike Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,154 Thanks: 14 Thanked 257 Times in 241 Posts	R433b is pretty close to a drop in replacement, it will require tweaking the TXV to perform its best so make sure the TXV is adjustable first. __________________ To my surprise, shortly after Naomi Wu gave me a bit of fame for making good use of solar power, Allie Moore got really jealous of her...

11-18-21, 08:57 PM	#9
vwhead77 Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Watkins Glen, NY Posts: 48 Thanks: 19 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	R22 Replacement I've been using R407C in most of my retrofits. It's best to replace all of the mineral oil you can with POE (drain the compressor). I haven't had one bit of trouble with it and the pressures are very close to R22. Never had to adjust the TXV. One drawback is the most of the modern Refrigerants are getting phased out and getting very expensive. R290a is good choice as well since that is what will replace all of these "R22" systems in the near future. Please don't mess with it if that unit has a leak though - it's obviously very flammable and therefore dangerous if you don't have a tight system. I've experimented with it at home and it seems to work just fine. I've repaired newer R290a systems which are already on the market. the world is going back to Propane, Butane, Methane, Ammonia, and CO2- so we're basically full circle back 80 years. PS - no matter what you use, fix the leak first

11-10-21, 01:31 PM	#5
CarbonKevin Lurking Renovator Join Date: May 2011 Location: Winnipeg, Manisnowba Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Check out R-290, aka Propane. It's a good replacement for R-12 and R-22 (not sure why you haven't edited your original post, I'm still not clear on which one you're actually asking about). I've been running it in my home system for two years now, and aside from needing to increase fan speed due to R-290 being higher performing than the system's original refrigerant, it's been trouble free.

11-10-21, 09:44 PM	#6
BradC Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Western Australia Posts: 148 Thanks: 1 Thanked 48 Times in 34 Posts	Please don't use straight Propane in an R12 system. The appropriate blend to replace R12 is about 40% R660a (iso-butane) and 60% R290 (propane). In this chart OZ-12 is the 40/60 blend. Watch the pressures. Because I like a perverse mix of country units, Y axis is pressure in PSI and X axis is temperature in degrees Centigrade. Not butane. Iso-butane.

11-10-21, 09:45 PM	#7
88xj Lurking Renovator Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: east coast Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	epa.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Choosing_Right_R22_Retrofit.pdf[/url] There are a number of approved blends that can replace R22. many of them are a mixture of R-32, R-125, R-134a and other refrigerants. Some include R-290 in the mix as well. R-407a R-407c R-421a R-421b R-422a R-422b R-422c R-427a R-428a etc etc R-410 which is not an approved substitute is a 50/50 mix of R-32 and R-125. R-134a is also not an approved R22 substitute R-407F which is approved is 30% R-32 30% R-125 and 40% R-134a So the devil is in the details of the percentage of each in the mix. Which is why when using those blends you have to charge the system with liquid not vapor to try to keep the % of each the same as what was intended.