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Old 12-20-14, 05:12 PM   #71
Robaroni
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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
You don't have to listen to fox, but what the IER says it true.
I guess you don't get it.
This is not going to hurt the coal power industry at all. When these power plants are forced shut down the ones that stay running will be able to charge more for the same product, coal prices will drop due to less demand from the shut downs and the coal power producers left running will make more money than ever. The government just legislated a huge profit margin increase for them.
This is going to hurt people and its slated to take effect right before winter of 2015.
The only alternative that has been able to make a dent in coals market share is natural gas, hydraulically fractured natural gas.
I don't know if any one has noticed but hydroelectric powers market share and production has shrank due to increasing demand for drinking water and irrigation, the nuclear power industries production and market share has been shrinking too.
Ridiculously expensive and inconsistent alternative energy sources like solar have struggled to keep their market share with ever increasing demand.
All the geo thermal power that can be used for generation is being used, so that market share is shrinking.
I've said this before but I'll repeat it again. We are in a historical transition, not much different than when whale oil got too costly. We started using kerosene in its place.
The higher the cost of consumables the more viable that alternates become.
Think about this - the sun shining on this planet for one hour produces all the energy this planet requires for a whole year. (DOE)
Sure natural gas wants to get its foot in the door, they see what's happening in Germany and other countries. Germany is now selling power to France because their aging nuclear is more of a burden than a solution. A couple of months ago Germany produced over 70% of its required energy. But here's the big difference. Coal, oil natural gas put money in the hands of the very few ( the Koch brothers made 9 billion last year). Alternates diversify energy to the masses so we all benefit along with the grid which is also stronger. So now utilities want to start putting in PV so the can maintain their monetary control.
Natural gas is another monster, not only is an environmental nightmare but it feeds the coffers of the very rich to the exclusion of everyone else and like any drug once the people are hooked on it the price will go up. NY State just banned fracking. We used to ban monopolies but now Citizen United and McCutcheon have ended that.

Energy monopolies want everyone to think alternatives are a pipe dream but they're not as many people here can attest too including me. Right now PV costs less than a buck a watt. The energy it takes to make a PV module is recovered in the first year of use with 29+ years of clean energy. Look at China going full speed forward in alternatives. You won't be a viable industrial nation without embracing alternatives and the challenge of the twenty first century won't be producing energy, we already can do that, it will be storing it.
Bottom line, the further you look into the past the further you see into the future and the common denominator is technology. It decided the AC grid over Edison's DC grid and it will dictate the future. Coal, oil and gas are consumables and their days are numbered, again we're in a historical transition. Alternatives are technology rich, they'll only get better.

Alternatives aren't inconsistent, wind compliments PV for example. What you don't hear is the present grids inconsistency but it's there in spades. Now take a relay in Canada that causes the east coast of the US to go dark. That kind of massive failure doesn't happen with alternative because they diversify the grid.
So I'll live with the coal industry trying to gouge out the masses. Their days are numbered and their lobbying power is diminishing. Raise their prices and that will only accelerate alternatives.

I saw all this coming years ago, I have over 10Kw of PV in and I'm ahead on my electric bill over $500. Coal prices don't affect me, now tell me again who isn't getting it?

Rob


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Old 12-20-14, 07:35 PM   #72
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Natural gas and oil are perfectly safe, all these alternatives like wind and solar need fast acting backup power for when they quit.
I agree coals days are numbered, to our 250 year supply.
I have been on, in and around wind turbines to know how much power they produce and use. After studying wind power generation for the last 3 semesters I can say they produce power inconsistently and unreliably. Whats worse then that is when the wind turbines are not producing power they still consume around 5kw each.

What happened in NY is a great example of what happens when fear, ignorance and fanaticism win. Seems they would rather have their people stuck burning expensive fuel oil or propane to heat their homes rather than give anyone the option to switch to much cheaper natural gas.
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Old 12-21-14, 09:10 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Natural gas and oil are perfectly safe, all these alternatives like wind and solar need fast acting backup power for when they quit.
I agree coals days are numbered, to our 250 year supply.
I have been on, in and around wind turbines to know how much power they produce and use. After studying wind power generation for the last 3 semesters I can say they produce power inconsistently and unreliably. Whats worse then that is when the wind turbines are not producing power they still consume around 5kw each.

What happened in NY is a great example of what happens when fear, ignorance and fanaticism win. Seems they would rather have their people stuck burning expensive fuel oil or propane to heat their homes rather than give anyone the option to switch to much cheaper natural gas.
"A team of scientists with the U.S. Geological Survey have found evidence “directly linking” the uptick in Colorado and New Mexico earthquakes since 2001 to wastewater injection, a process widely used in the controversial technique of hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, and conventional drilling."

Scientists Find 'Direct Link' Between Earthquakes And Process Used For Oil And Gas Drilling | ThinkProgress

"Between 2005 and 2009, the oil and gas service companies used hydraulic fracturing
products containing 29 chemicals that are (1) known or possible human carcinogens, (2)
regulated under the Safe Drinking Water Act for their risks to human health, or (3) listed as
hazardous air pollutants under the Clean Air Act. These 29 chemicals were components of more
than 650 different products used in hydraulic fracturing."


http://democrats.energycommerce.hous...-2011-4-18.pdf

"5. The technical resource potential of the winds above U.S. coastal waters is enough to provide more than 4,000 gigawatts of electricity, or approximately four times the generating capacity of the current U.S. electric power system. Although not all of these resources will be developed, this represents a major opportunity to provide power to highly-populated coastal cities. See what the Energy Department is doing to develop offshore wind in the United States and learn more about the ongoing Offshore Wind Advanced Technology Demonstration projects.

4. The United States generates more wind energy than any other country except China, and wind has accounted for 33 percent of all newly installed U.S. electricity generation capacity over the last seven years.

3. The United States’ wind power capacity reached more than 61 gigawatts by the end of 2013. That’s enough electricity to power nearly 16 million homes annually -- more than the total number of homes in the entire state of California -- and represents nearly a 20-fold increase in capacity since 2000.

2. Wind energy is affordable. Wind prices for power contracts signed in 2013 and levelized wind prices (the price the utility pays to buy power from a wind farm) are as low as 2.5 cents per kilowatt-hour in some areas of the country. This is the lowest ever price recorded by the Energy Department’s annual Wind Technologies Market Report.

1. Wind has the potential to supply the country with abundant amounts of clean, renewable energy, but continued support for favorable clean energy policies, such as the Production Tax Credit, is critical to achieving this target. To set the stage for future growth, the Energy Department is developing a new Wind Vision for the future of wind power research, development and deployment throughout the United States.
"

Top 10 Things You Didn't Know About Wind Power | Department of Energy

"Coal generates 44% of our electricity, and is the single biggest air polluter in the U.S.

Air pollution: Burning coal causes smog, soot, acid rain, global warming, and toxic air emissions.
Learn more.

Wastes generated: Ash, sludge, toxic chemicals, and waste heat create more environmental problems.
Learn more.

Fuel supply: Mining, transporting, and storing coal levels mountains and pollutes the land, water, and air.
Learn more.

Water use: Coal plants need billions of gallons of cooling water and harm wildlife.
Learn more."


Coal generates 44% of our electricity, and is the single biggest air polluter in the U.S. | Union of Concerned Scientists

That's what we want, 250 more years of poisoning people and the environment.

Should we go into the wars to protect corporate oil interests around the world? What does that cost in lives, war pollution and monetary expense.

"Smog—Who Does It Hurt?
What You Need to Know About Ozone and Your Health"


http://www.epa.gov/airnow/health/smog.pdf

Thanks, I'll take alternates.

Rob

Last edited by Robaroni; 12-21-14 at 09:22 AM..
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Old 12-21-14, 12:26 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robaroni View Post
"A team of scientists with the U.S. Geological Survey have found evidence “directly linking” the uptick in Colorado and New Mexico earthquakes since 2001 to wastewater injection, a process widely used in the controversial technique of hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, and conventional drilling."

Scientists Find 'Direct Link' Between Earthquakes And Process Used For Oil And Gas Drilling | ThinkProgress
I guarantee hydraulic fracturing causes tiny little 2 and 3 magnitude earth quakes. Being in NY do you have any frame of reference between a harmless 2 to 3 magnitude earth quake and a real damaging earth quake?
Funny thing is I usually only ever see east coasters trying to make a big deal about these insignificant earth quakes. People on the west coast usually don't say a lot about these 2s and 3s. I bet they find it rather entertaining that some people are trying to make suck a big deal out of them.
I lived in japan for 3 and a half years so I know what a real earth quake is. Anything less than a 4, I wouldn't even notice anymore.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Robaroni View Post
"Between 2005 and 2009, the oil and gas service companies used hydraulic fracturing
products containing 29 chemicals that are (1) known or possible human carcinogens, (2)
regulated under the Safe Drinking Water Act for their risks to human health, or (3) listed as
hazardous air pollutants under the Clean Air Act. These 29 chemicals were components of more
than 650 different products used in hydraulic fracturing."
Prime example of fear and fanaticism. You have worse chemicals than that under your sink. Plus no one hydraulic fracturing company uses every fracking chemical listed. The companies in west texas use 8 chemicals and I know what they are because I have been to several fracturing operations.
You should really be worried about the chemicals used in the food industry. The food industry uses quite a few of the same chemicals and I guarantee they are in your food and drink right now.
But by all means continue to focus your attention where you are told to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robaroni View Post
http://democrats.energycommerce.hous...-2011-4-18.pdf

"5. The technical resource potential of the winds above U.S. coastal waters is enough to provide more than 4,000 gigawatts of electricity, or approximately four times the generating capacity of the current U.S. electric power system. Although not all of these resources will be developed, this represents a major opportunity to provide power to highly-populated coastal cities. See what the Energy Department is doing to develop offshore wind in the United States and learn more about the ongoing Offshore Wind Advanced Technology Demonstration projects.

4. The United States generates more wind energy than any other country except China, and wind has accounted for 33 percent of all newly installed U.S. electricity generation capacity over the last seven years.

3. The United States’ wind power capacity reached more than 61 gigawatts by the end of 2013. That’s enough electricity to power nearly 16 million homes annually -- more than the total number of homes in the entire state of California -- and represents nearly a 20-fold increase in capacity since 2000.

2. Wind energy is affordable. Wind prices for power contracts signed in 2013 and levelized wind prices (the price the utility pays to buy power from a wind farm) are as low as 2.5 cents per kilowatt-hour in some areas of the country. This is the lowest ever price recorded by the Energy Department’s annual Wind Technologies Market Report.

1. Wind has the potential to supply the country with abundant amounts of clean, renewable energy, but continued support for favorable clean energy policies, such as the Production Tax Credit, is critical to achieving this target. To set the stage for future growth, the Energy Department is developing a new Wind Vision for the future of wind power research, development and deployment throughout the United States.
"

Top 10 Things You Didn't Know About Wind Power | Department of Energy
You are preaching to the choir, I have already been formally educated in wind power generation you are not going to be able to tell may any thing I am not already intimately aware of.
You can read all the articles and news reports you want and you still wont have scratched the surface on what their true capabilities, limitations and dirty little secrets.
When it comes to wind turbines remember, you read AP articles, I read wind turbine specific technical publications that you cant look up on the internet. You have seen wind turbines, I have been inside them, on top of them and inside wind farm control centers and viewed real time and historical production numbers from wind turbines I have worked on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robaroni View Post
"Coal generates 44% of our electricity, and is the single biggest air polluter in the U.S.

Air pollution: Burning coal causes smog, soot, acid rain, global warming, and toxic air emissions.
Learn more.

Wastes generated: Ash, sludge, toxic chemicals, and waste heat create more environmental problems.
Learn more.

Fuel supply: Mining, transporting, and storing coal levels mountains and pollutes the land, water, and air.
Learn more.

Water use: Coal plants need billions of gallons of cooling water and harm wildlife.
Learn more."


Coal generates 44% of our electricity, and is the single biggest air polluter in the U.S. | Union of Concerned Scientists
And coal will continue its acidic rein as long as the party of fear, ignorance and fanaticism continue to block alternatives like nuclear that can compete with coals low cost and reliable 24hr 7 day a week consistent 350ish day a year production.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robaroni View Post
That's what we want, 250 more years of poisoning people and the environment.
Only 249 years, 11 months and about 29 days now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robaroni View Post
Should we go into the wars to protect corporate oil interests around the world? What does that cost in lives, war pollution and monetary expense.
Fracking bans in in the US are the only thing I can think of to ensure another "war for oil" sooner rather than later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robaroni View Post
"Smog—Who Does It Hurt?
What You Need to Know About Ozone and Your Health"


http://www.epa.gov/airnow/health/smog.pdf

Thanks, I'll take alternates.

Rob
Natural gas creates nitrogen oxides, ozone and smog too.
Alternatives are great as long as they are working.

Last edited by oil pan 4; 12-21-14 at 12:28 PM..
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Old 12-21-14, 03:33 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
I guarantee hydraulic fracturing causes tiny little 2 and 3 magnitude earth quakes. Being in NY do you have any frame of reference between a harmless 2 to 3 magnitude earth quake and a real damaging earth quake?
Funny thing is I usually only ever see east coasters trying to make a big deal about these insignificant earth quakes. People on the west coast usually don't say a lot about these 2s and 3s. I bet they find it rather entertaining that some people are trying to make suck a big deal out of them.
I lived in japan for 3 and a half years so I know what a real earth quake is. Anything less than a 4, I wouldn't even notice anymore.




Prime example of fear and fanaticism. You have worse chemicals than that under your sink. Plus no one hydraulic fracturing company uses every fracking chemical listed. The companies in west texas use 8 chemicals and I know what they are because I have been to several fracturing operations.
You should really be worried about the chemicals used in the food industry. The food industry uses quite a few of the same chemicals and I guarantee they are in your food and drink right now.
But by all means continue to focus your attention where you are told to.



You are preaching to the choir, I have already been formally educated in wind power generation you are not going to be able to tell may any thing I am not already intimately aware of.
You can read all the articles and news reports you want and you still wont have scratched the surface on what their true capabilities, limitations and dirty little secrets.
When it comes to wind turbines remember, you read AP articles, I read wind turbine specific technical publications that you cant look up on the internet. You have seen wind turbines, I have been inside them, on top of them and inside wind farm control centers and viewed real time and historical production numbers from wind turbines I have worked on.



And coal will continue its acidic rein as long as the party of fear, ignorance and fanaticism continue to block alternatives like nuclear that can compete with coals low cost and reliable 24hr 7 day a week consistent 350ish day a year production.


Only 249 years, 11 months and about 29 days now.



Fracking bans in in the US are the only thing I can think of to ensure another "war for oil" sooner rather than later.



Natural gas creates nitrogen oxides, ozone and smog too.
Alternatives are great as long as they are working.
Gee only 8 chemicals used in fracking, that can't be bad for anything!
What are the long range effects of those earthquakes? You can't tell me because, like everyone else, you don't know just like we don't know the long range effects of the chemicals we pump into the ground. What are the effects of those chemicals on your children, their children and the children 100 years from now? We don't know!

We do know the massive effects of coal acidity on our oceans, lakes and living organisms though.

And let's not block nuclear, that's what we need another Fukushima, we have radio active milk in Washington State from that disaster.

Do you know how close we came to polluting half the states in the south from 3 Mile Island and the Susquehanna River? There were 700, 000 gallons of radio active water sitting in a cracked building on the Susquehanna River while authorities rushed to get women and children out of the area. How about Chernobyl and the spike in cancer rates in Russia? How about the high cost of decommissioning old plants. As France about that with 75% nuclear that is the equivalent of a car with 100,000 miles on it and a bad motor, do you fix it or do you buy a new car. They're buying power from Germany now. Just what we need nuclear. Make room in your basement for the spent rods if you think nuclear is so great.

Bottom line alternatives, including wind, are technology rich without pumping harsh chemicals into the ground and without earthquakes. They diversify the grid and diversify wealth. Not oil, coal, nuclear or gas can make those claims. 250 years for coal? The sun will shine for the next billion years. The windmills your working on today will only improve and the cost of PV panels will only go down as new technology refines how they function.

But this thread is about autonomy not living off oil, gas and coal, so tomorrow the lights go out, where do you stand? What is your solution to the original question?

Rob

Last edited by Robaroni; 12-21-14 at 03:42 PM..
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Old 12-22-14, 01:51 AM   #76
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Funny you should mention long term effects of 2 and 3 quakes. The mechanical and civil engineer I talked to about this have absolutely no worries.
They say if any major structure fails due to a tiny 2 or 3 quakes then it was "the straw that broke the cammels back" and that such a failure could only happen after years of neglect and/or abuse facilitated by criminally covering up and hiding problem areas and warning signs. Or something to that effect.
They only studied vibrations, materials science, past failures and other related subjects for 4 years, make a living with this knowledge and can design buildings that have a natural resonance not produced by earth quakes. But what do they know.

The long term effect of the chemicals pumped into the ground will be the same as the natural chemicals that accumulated there all by them selves. They stayed there for millions of years under thousands of pounds pressure until the monkeys came along, drilled down and pumped them out. With the chemicals we pump down there and leave at 0 well head pressure have a better chance of staying put than the natural stuff that was there originally.
So after 100 years, its all still going to be exactly where we left it.

The so called waste fuel rods are in fact around 95% useable fuel if recycled. Throwing away a once used fuel rod is the most irresponsible, most ignorant thing that could possibly be done to dispose of them.
Raw fuel rods could remain highly radioactive for many thousands of years. When the waste nuclides are isolated and concentrated away from the usable fuel their radioactivity drops very rapidly. The radioactivity decays so fast that after 40 years, the waste nuclides will be 99.9% less radioactive then when first separated or about as radioactive as granite.
Your fear of all things nuclear is astounding and clearly the product of the medias fear mongering.
If you love, hate or don't know anything about nuclear power you should watch the first 5 minutes of this. Its pretty much everything you need to know about current nuclear technology in a nut shell.

If you watch all of it your mind will be blown.

You mention fukushima. There were problems with that plants management, remember I lived in northern japan for 3 years. I know a few things you don't.
The managers of the fukushima power plant were fired years ago while I was in japan for fraud and mismanagement. It was big news over there. They built a 15 foot sea wall in a place that has been known for hundreds of years to be hit by periodically hit by 45 foot high tsunamis. Actually when the earth quake happened everything worked the reactor was being shut down properly until the emergency shutdown backup systems lost power. If they had 24 hours of battery power or if the sea walls were high enough to protect the emergency systems backup generators or had the generators been in a sealed bunker and vented to high above the ground none of this would have happened. That was all due to bean counter management saying no, because it would cost money. Then on top of all that for some reason the emergency hydrogen vent pumped hydrogen into an enclosed area above the containment dome. That caused the explosion.
These were mismanagement and poor design problems not nuclear problems.
These problems were solved by a new reactor to the south of fukushima that was hit by the earthquake and tsunami and survived, shut down with out issue.

Chernobyls only purpose in life was to produce as much weapons grade plutonium as possible. Safety concerns and extra robustness for unauthorized science experiments were not part of the design.

3 mile island failed and did exactly what it was supposed to do in that mode of failure.
It could be properly cleaned up but it will be expensive and will be a political lightening rod. So they are going to leave it alone for as long as they can.

Funny you should mention decommissioning nuclear power plants. Nuclear power stations like wind turbines now have decommissioning funding plan built into them.
Some of the really old nuclear power stations might not have a decommission fund but that doesn't mean new ones wont have one.
A decommissioning fund prevents what you see in California where you have sites with thousands of abandoned wind turbines that were built in the 1980s just sitting there.

The sad thing about solar is its so pathetic if you took the entire worlds solar power out in 2010 it wouldn't even be able to provide 20% of japans power in 2010.
So japan couldn't even buy all the solar panels in existence and power their country.
How do you propose we power much of anything in the US with solar?

Last edited by Daox; 12-22-14 at 10:48 AM..
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Old 12-22-14, 09:27 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Funny you should mention long term effects of 2 and 3 quakes. The mechanical and civil engineer I talked to about this have absolutely no worries.
They say if any major structure fails due to a tiny 2 or 3 quakes then it was "the straw that broke the cammels back" and that such a failure could only happen after years of neglect and/or abuse facilitated by criminally covering up and hiding problem areas and warning signs. Or something to that effect.
They only studied vibrations, materials science, past failures and other related subjects for 4 years, make a living with this knowledge and can design buildings that have a natural resonance not produced by earth quakes. But what do they know.

The long term effect of the chemicals pumped into the ground will be the same as the natural chemicals that accumulated there all by them selves. They stayed there for millions of years under thousands of pounds pressure until the monkeys came along, drilled down and pumped them out. With the chemicals we pump down there and leave at 0 well head pressure have a better chance of staying put than the natural stuff that was there originally.
So after 100 years, its all still going to be exactly where we left it.

The so called waste fuel rods are in fact around 95% useable fuel if recycled. Throwing away a once used fuel rod is the most irresponsible, most ignorant thing that could possibly be done to dispose of them.
Raw fuel rods could remain highly radioactive for many thousands of years. When the waste nuclides are isolated and concentrated away from the usable fuel their radioactivity drops very rapidly. The radioactivity decays so fast that after 40 years, the waste nuclides will be 99.9% less radioactive then when first separated or about as radioactive as granite.
Your fear of all things nuclear is astounding and clearly the product of the medias fear mongering.
If you love, hate or don't know anything about nuclear power you should watch the first 5 minutes of this. Its pretty much everything you need to know about current nuclear technology in a nut shell.

If you watch all of it your mind will be blown.

You mention fukushima. There were problems with that plants management, remember I lived in northern japan for 3 years. I know a few things you don't.
The managers of the fukushima power plant were fired years ago while I was in japan for fraud and mismanagement. It was big news over there. They built a 15 foot sea wall in a place that has been known for hundreds of years to be hit by periodically hit by 45 foot high tsunamis. Actually when the earth quake happened everything worked the reactor was being shut down properly until the emergency shutdown backup systems lost power. If they had 24 hours of battery power or if the sea walls were high enough to protect the emergency systems backup generators or had the generators been in a sealed bunker and vented to high above the ground none of this would have happened. That was all due to bean counter management saying no, because it would cost money. Then on top of all that for some reason the emergency hydrogen vent pumped hydrogen into an enclosed area above the containment dome. That caused the explosion.
These were mismanagement and poor design problems not nuclear problems.
These problems were solved by a new reactor to the south of fukushima that was hit by the earthquake and tsunami and survived, shut down with out issue.

Chernobyls only purpose in life was to produce as much weapons grade plutonium as possible. Safety concerns and extra robustness for unauthorized science experiments were not part of the design.

3 mile island failed and did exactly what it was supposed to do in that mode of failure.
It could be properly cleaned up but it will be expensive and will be a political lightening rod. So they are going to leave it alone for as long as they can.

Funny you should mention decommissioning nuclear power plants. Nuclear power stations like wind turbines now have decommissioning funding plan built into them.
Some of the really old nuclear power stations might not have a decommission fund but that doesn't mean new ones wont have one.
A decommissioning fund prevents what you see in California where you have sites with thousands of abandoned wind turbines that were built in the 1980s just sitting there.

The sad thing about solar is its so pathetic if you took the entire worlds solar power out in 2010 it wouldn't even be able to provide 20% of japans power in 2010.
So japan couldn't even buy all the solar panels in existence and power their country.
How do you propose we power much of anything in the US with solar?
I could answer everything you have said here but this thread is about autonomy and that is the question you didn't answer. An you didn't answer it because everything you promote is a product of people and systems that don't want anyone to think outside the box they have created and never want you to ask it.

When we talk about existing without oil, gas, etc. we are talking about existing without the corporate control that hooks, like a drug, people. Your only answer is to think in the box because that's the pabulum you've been fed and that's the only answer you know.

Control energy, water, food, etc. and you control the people. You can't live without the gas in your car can you? That's exactly what the Koch brothers and their 9 million dollars in profits want. You can't live with a limited system of supply, you have to go to the super market constantly, don't you? And you think you are free, well you're not free. You're on a drug.

Tomorrow the oil runs to a trickle and the food runs to a trickle. What do you do? Go watch Fox News? Because your basic plan is live off coal for the next 250 years until it chokes everything in sight with acid rain.

And what do you do if another relay fails or the real threat of terrorism takes out the grid for a year? What's you plan? Sit in the dark and hope terrorists don't blow up a nuclear plant so that you'll be sitting in the dark while being radiated? Because out of all the nuclear plants only the people at Fukushima ever made a mistake or cut corners because of greed? It won't ever happen again?
And I don't care what went on at Chernobyl, it melted down and created a barren waste land. And I don't care what an engineer said about earthquakes or how safe his company thinks the proprietary chemicals they pump in to the ground are. We thought DDT was safe, it wasn't. Monsanto said Agent Orange was safe but it killed more US troops than the Vietcong. PCB's weren't safe either but all the crap we're pumping into the ground is?

Alternative will only get better and they will keep affording the individual the best and cleanest, chance for autonomy. Their diversification will only make the grid stronger. You keep talking like alternatives are at a standstill technologically, that's what you've been taught and the best you can do is parrot it.

The last big oil find was in the North Sea. Do you know when it happened? The year we went to the moon, 1969. But let's keep polluting the planet until we don't have drop of oil left and the smog over our cities is so bad that we're all walking around with masks.

So again, what is your answer to the original question? The question that your oil, gas and coal philosophy can't answer.

And by the way, I could see everything POTUS could see and was working on the first top secret military computers and had several medical instrument patents before you were a star in you mother's eye.
I went to school too, graduated Summa Cum Laude and was one of 20 students out of 20,000 thousand nominated for the Chancellors Award for Student Excellence.
I retired at 46 and today have a full machine shop, electronics lab, organic gardens and an autonomous house. I can make a windmill from scratch including all the electronics which I can fabricate right here. So maybe you might want to stop telling me what I don't know!

Rob

Last edited by Daox; 12-22-14 at 10:49 AM..
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Old 12-22-14, 10:47 AM   #78
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Just a reminder that this thread is about "preparing for temporary lapses of the infrastructure".

Discussing Coal vs. Nuclear vs. Renewables, etc. and their long-term effects, and the end of the world as we know it is a GREAT topic, important to our times, and well worth debating…. in a different thread.


As an exercise, thinking about how to deal well with a temporary lapse of infrastructure has lots of benefits. BESIDES making sure you are ready for the next short blackout, it does help a person think about where their energy comes from and conserving energy in general.

For example, many people who are interested in a whole house solar system first do an energy audit, and realize how much heat and electricity can be saved simply by changing light bulbs and adding some weather-stripping. In an emergency, their now-more-efficient-than-before house will be easier to run from a smaller generator or solar setup, or have a longer use on the same amount of fuel.

It also does get people to "think outside the box". There's lots of people who aren't doomsday-preppers, but would like to be prepared for the basics when there is limited infrastructure. Events like a small blackout get lots of people interested in renewable energy, DIY electronics, and general self-sufficiency.
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Old 12-22-14, 12:45 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bennelson View Post
Just a reminder that this thread is about "preparing for temporary lapses of the infrastructure".

Discussing Coal vs. Nuclear vs. Renewables, etc. and their long-term effects, and the end of the world as we know it is a GREAT topic, important to our times, and well worth debating…. in a different thread.


As an exercise, thinking about how to deal well with a temporary lapse of infrastructure has lots of benefits. BESIDES making sure you are ready for the next short blackout, it does help a person think about where their energy comes from and conserving energy in general.

For example, many people who are interested in a whole house solar system first do an energy audit, and realize how much heat and electricity can be saved simply by changing light bulbs and adding some weather-stripping. In an emergency, their now-more-efficient-than-before house will be easier to run from a smaller generator or solar setup, or have a longer use on the same amount of fuel.

It also does get people to "think outside the box". There's lots of people who aren't doomsday-preppers, but would like to be prepared for the basics when there is limited infrastructure. Events like a small blackout get lots of people interested in renewable energy, DIY electronics, and general self-sufficiency.
I agree and I've asked Oil Pan 4 repeatedly on my last two posts what his response is to the original question.

"So again, what is your answer to the original question?"

Rob
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Old 12-22-14, 07:11 PM   #80
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OK, let me say that I apologize to the group for getting sucked into this. EcoRenovator is a great site with lots of neat people doing neat things and I totally appreciate that, share, and learn from it. I'm glad there is a lack of nonsense and banter that a lot of other sites, that I no longer frequent, get involved in.

So Oil Pan 4 I'm letting this go but, hey, this post was about trying to find some level of sustainability I may be wrong but I don't think anyone is interested in large scale single point energy sources or generation. Most of what I see is just the opposite. I'm building windmills in the 1 to 5k watt range for example. I figure whatever I do to generate my own power adds a little less to uncapped oil spills in the Gulf. I may be completely wrong and my little drop in the bucket may not do much but it looks to me to be a better solution than living life expecting someone to deliver power to my door, regardless of the source. If it gets me through a week long power failure all the better.

Peace,
Rob

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