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Old 12-12-13, 07:55 PM   #1631
AC_Hacker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerGrylls View Post
BTW - AC hacker, was thinking of how you brazed the copper tubing to the BPHE, the wet rag - why not submerging the BPHE in water instead (in a shallow bucket etc), of course lower than the inlet. Would that work ?
The water submersion method would be a very good way to do it. I hadn't heard of it at the time, though. The method I used is how people in the trade do it, when they're on a job.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerGrylls View Post
The large radiator idea is interesting...

I would NOT suggest using a submerged radiator, as it will quickly become a magnet for fouling due to all the stuff that is in the water. The people who suggest submerging radiators (they're everywhere) haven't had enough first-hand experience with a water heat exchanger, and do not realize that the required heat exchange area in water is drastically smaller than that required in air. If you were in a do-or-die McGeiver type of situation, or if you are on a reality TV show, then sure, it might be better than being thrown off the island... but you'd loose style points. It sounds like you have reasonable solutions available.

The freezing point of water is an issue, but if your pump velocity is high enough, the water will not dwell in the exchanger long enough to freeze. So you should count on much higher than normal flow rate/Ton.



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Originally Posted by BeerGrylls View Post
Anyone has experience with BPHE cleaning of performance decrease in open loops?
Yes, their passages are very tiny and will become hopelessly fouled very quickly. Do not use BPHE in open loop, unless you have a large and thorough filtering system.

Stick with some kind of tube-in-tube HX. If you have tools, you should be able to make one. Only the refrigerant tube needs to be copper. Make sure that the passages are large enough to allow debris to flow in, and right on out.


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Originally Posted by BeerGrylls View Post
So the current plan is - 1 ton water to refrg HX (coax or BP), variable speed water pump (capacity to be determined, the air coil fan is rated 30W, would be nice if the pump is the same power rating because I could even use motor wiring for the pump, fan is BLDC) and to figure out refrg. filling after the hack is mechanically done.
Your two big enemies are fouling and freezing.

I love BPHEs but stay away from BPHE because of fouling for river water.

You are going to need a robust pump to get your flow velocity up high enough to avoid freezing. Like maybe 2X or 4X what would be normal flow. You should be able to use the power to the fan to power a relay that would control higher current to your pump. Your COP will be so high, that extra power for a pump is not so important. River water, even when near freezing, contains a lot of heat. An ASHP on a day that is about 0 degrees F, will be happily providing you with warmth... same with water.

Before you start hacking your equipment and hurling truck radiators in to your lovely river, you should become acquainted with some of your fellow River Rats, and see if any of them have done, or if they know anyone else who has done what you are attempting... you might be surprised. River Rats are a crafty lot, and from my experience, a friendly lot, too.

I did talk to a boat-dweller the other day. He didn't have a heat pump, but there were people around him that did. He talked about the constant stream of water going into the river, next to his boat... he said it made him have to go to the bathroom all the time. I bet you never considered that part of the situation, did you? Anyway, even that could be resolved by having the discharge tube below the surface of the water.

He said that there was a boat in his moorage that had 4 or 5 units, each dribbling into the river. At that rate, it's a wonder he didn't wet his bed.

You're the first poster who has wanted to hack their sailboat!

Welcome aboard.

-AC

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Old 12-13-13, 12:12 PM   #1632
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Originally Posted by waterdigger2 View Post
On the Heat Exchanger. None yet . Have found one with all sweat fittings that i plan on getting. Only its 10 plate.

10 Plate Copper Brazed Heat Exchanger 5"x12" 3 4" Sweat | eBay

Yea. I dont plan on usin a cooler or nothing crazy like that. From what i under stand the heat exchanger is basically what switches the heat from the refridgerant and exchanges it with the loop water and makes it efficient .
waterdigger2,

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you...

That BPHX you have linked to looks like a good one to me.

There are charts on the Internet that can help you size your HX correctly. But you need to keep in mind that charts that are for water-to-water do not apply to refrigerant-to-water, because the heat exchange rate is different.

I found a Mueller BPHX document called, "MUELLER-BPHE (CR-1242-2BPXSize-Tech).pdf", that has similar, but larger HXs.

I looked at one that had the closest Width x Length dimensions and divided its capacity (many more plates) by the fact that yours is 10 plates...

By my reconing, using your BPHX in an evaporator role (getting heat from your water) your HX should be just fine for a Ton (12,000 BTU.hr).

* * *




But if you are really, really broke, and can scrounge up some copper tubing, and plastic pipe, you could build one similar to the one that Acquario did for his SWIMMING POOL IN SPAIN.

You'd just have to give it your best guess and try it out.

-AC
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Old 12-18-13, 12:27 AM   #1633
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I thought this was an interesting site dealing with heat pumps, alternative energy inputs and heat distribution. The site, which is pushing products, has some good design information, but the installation manual seems like a gem to me.

Website:

Cylinder & Thermal Store supplier for air source heat pump, installer, distributor

Installation manual:

http://www.ecoairpump.co.uk/air-sour...rmal-Store.pdf
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Old 12-18-13, 02:26 AM   #1634
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Very much like my 'Combined solar plus heatpump' heating system..
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/solar-...l-heating.html
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Old 12-18-13, 10:48 AM   #1635
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I thought this was an interesting site dealing with heat pumps, alternative energy inputs and heat distribution...
I agree, the install manual is definitely a keeper (I saved a copy into my Alternative Energy trove).

Looks like the heart of the system is a very high performance thermal storage tank like these:

(From THIS PAGE)


Adn also...
(From THIS PAGE)


And also...
(From THIS PAGE)


These tanks are really very well designed, superb insulation, and great care given to the coils that are inside the tanks.

I bought a similar tank from a guy down the street (stainless steel, $20), but it is smallish (40 gal), was for natural gas, and not designed for low temperature heating, so the coils inside the tank are too big and too few to do me much good... I am considering cutting it open and installing some coils (smaller diameter, and more turns) that would be better suited for low Delta-T. It is worth noting how aware these designs are of temperature stratification, and how to use it to maximum advantage.

* * *

Acuario, were the tanks you used, specifically meant for thermal storage? Do they seem to have enough storage volume for your needs?

Best,

-AC
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Old 12-18-13, 11:27 AM   #1636
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Yes they were originally for hot water. They are domestic 100 Litre hot water cylinders that originally had a resistive heater inside. There is a quite thick layer of foam insulation between the steel tank and the outside jacket. As a bonus, being intended for domestic water, the insides are coated with enamel so less chance of corrosion problems.

With the two tanks in series and a recirculating pump they are just about perfect for use with the solar panels.
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Old 01-02-14, 06:23 PM   #1637
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Have been working for a little finally. Took the time to insulate the attics to the R30 houses with no insulation at all gets pretty nippy. Did have a chance to test the ground water . Water temps at 400ft depth well is 64.6 degrees F. Plan on getting back to the building of the geothermal now .
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Old 01-02-14, 06:40 PM   #1638
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And then you have this:

http://triangletube.com/documents/23/SME_Literature.pdf

A little closer to home
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Old 01-02-14, 07:08 PM   #1639
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Water temps at 400ft depth well is 64.6 degrees F. Plan on getting back to the building of the geothermal now .
400 foot deep well?

I think you need to give us some details on that project.

-AC
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Old 01-02-14, 09:07 PM   #1640
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400 foot deep well?

I think you need to give us some details on that project.

-AC
Yea i have a old 2 inch water well on the property. Got a temp sensor to check and see what the water temp would be it was 64 . Thats pretty much a finished project the water well is . Just a standard old drinkin water well.

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