new house, lots to do. - Page 2

natethebrown · 08-12-15, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikesolar

OK, hows this......two, 20 year old side by side fridge/freezers. Energuide label still on says 120kwh PER MONTH......replaced with bottom drawer fridges with 550kwh ANNUAL consumption. To top it off, one door on the main fridge was warped so it never closed. The old owners kept this going for years. I couldn't stand it for more than 2 weeks, haha. The damn compressor never stopped.

Me thinks I have a quick payback with this one.

.

My wife and I recently purchased a refrigerator. The biggest energy waste on a refrigerator was a water/ice dispenser in the door. Some models nearly doubled their energy usage with that convenience add on. We ended up getting a french door type, without a water/ice dispenser, which really only used about 20 KW-Hr more per month than the most efficient refrigerators of the same size. Not a bad trade off for a happy wife!

Mikesolar · 08-12-15, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by natethebrown

My wife and I recently purchased a refrigerator. The biggest energy waste on a refrigerator was a water/ice dispenser in the door. Some models nearly doubled their energy usage with that convenience add on. We ended up getting a french door type, without a water/ice dispenser, which really only used about 20 KW-Hr more per month than the most efficient refrigerators of the same size. Not a bad trade off for a happy wife!

Yea, we didn't want the ice maker either for the same reason but there is a cold water dispenser inside the fridge, which I didn't know about. The big thing we wanted was the bottom freezer because the dogs don't have to be pushed out of the way to get to the fridge part.
It seems french doors are way too popular. The supply of regular ones is small in comparison, unless I bought a SunFrost but it is major bucks.

Mikesolar · 08-12-15, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox

Hilarious, and nice replacement. 120 kWh per month, wow!

Attic insulation sounds like a no brainer. Don't forget to air seal before you do it (I'm sure you know, more info for others).

My original plan was to pull out the vermiculite and put 1" of foam over the old plaster/drywall and then 14" of cellulose. Now, because of the kraft faced fibreglas, I may not pull it up. If it is put down properly, it performs an OK job as a VB (sort of). If there is no asbestos in the vermiculite, I may just load up on new cellulose and save the money and time. If there is asbestos, all bets are off and I will take it all out.

Mikesolar · 09-05-15, 07:01 PM

Little update. No asbestos in the insulation so my thoughts are now to put a VB over the 2x4 ceiling joists and then put 16" of cellulose over top. If you keep the 1/3- 2/3 rule, there should not be condensation issues. I will get a couple more opinions on that before I do it though....

Got the new fridges. Amazing how much less the AC runs, haha

Two out of 4 new doors installed. Waiting on the other doors and windows.

JRMichler · 09-08-15, 08:02 PM

If you put enough insulation on top of a vapor barrier you will not get condensation on the VB. The temperature at the VB needs only be above the indoor dew point. And 16" of cellulose is not much. I put 32" of blow in fiberglass in my new house about 3 years ago. That amount was based on a payback analysis, although I will admit to a very small ROI for the last 6".

I'd be more concerned about air leaks through the ceiling and interior and outside wall top plates. Electricians love to drill big holes to pull small wires through.

Mikesolar · 09-08-15, 08:40 PM

Cellulose is cheap so 20"+ is easy to do. The big problem is that I have no eves to vent so there will be cellulose touching the roof boards from the wall up at that point. There may be a condensation issue which I want to avoid.

Drake · 09-08-15, 09:49 PM

Sounds like you have added yard space to supply renewable fresh produce if you like to play in the dirt. I don't get into veggies that much but I have financed my perennial habit with a well awaite annual plant sale of the ever surplus once they get established.

Roof ventilation is critical. We suffered thru the first several winter we where rebuilding our 50's dormered dollhouse that weeped black frost melt off roof felt on sunny winter days until I could get to solving the lack of ventilation. Not a single vents was installed in 2x8 dormer roof. Only have 5" overhang w/gutters but still put in continuous soffit and ridge venting - problem solved. I have seen vented facia if you only have it(and no gutters).

Good luck on the many projects ahead.

JRMichler · 09-09-15, 09:48 AM

Roof ventilation is especially important in old houses with a lot of air leaks from the heated space. If the thermal envelope is fully air sealed AND has a good (not necessarily perfect) vapor barrier, then there is no need for any roof ventilation.

My own house has the connection to the soffits sealed off, and the blown in insulation contacts the roof near the outside walls. No problems because of the air sealing and vapor barrier.

On the other hand, I consulted for a local builder who built a house that had several inches of frost on the underside of the roof. He put in a high power, noisy roof exhaust fan which reduced the frost almost enough to prevent water damage when it melted in spring. The root cause was the gap around the chimney sending humid air up into the attic. Sealed that, eliminated the exhaust fan, problem solved.

Drake · 09-09-15, 11:14 AM

I agree with you. Sounds like MS is retroing an older home as I did and might not be able to count on maybe any vapor barriers to speak of. One needs to really inspect structure to choose best retrofit plan. In my new build I am working on now I can insure a continuous HD vapor barrier thru out structure with the triple wall design I am using, not easy to do in a rebuild. At the time our house had the dormer added(before us) building code was unvented low pitch roof that probably let in moisture from both above and from interior. Very poor building practice.

JRMichler · 09-09-15, 12:24 PM

How true. My shop is a converted garage. The ceiling insulation was originally 12" of fiberglass batts over drywall with no vapor barrier. The drywall was not even taped. I taped the drywall, and that did not even stop the air leaks.

So I ripped out the fiberglass and gave it to a friend to put in his attic. I then had a couple inches of foam installed. That sealed the air leaks. I then blew in two feet of fiberglass on top the foam to get a total R-value approaching 80.

Now I have some humidity in the winter, and hardly use the dehumidifier in summer. Success!

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09-05-15, 07:01 PM	#14
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	Little update. No asbestos in the insulation so my thoughts are now to put a VB over the 2x4 ceiling joists and then put 16" of cellulose over top. If you keep the 1/3- 2/3 rule, there should not be condensation issues. I will get a couple more opinions on that before I do it though.... Got the new fridges. Amazing how much less the AC runs, haha Two out of 4 new doors installed. Waiting on the other doors and windows.

09-08-15, 08:02 PM	#15
JRMichler Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Phillips, WI Posts: 109 Thanks: 10 Thanked 30 Times in 25 Posts	If you put enough insulation on top of a vapor barrier you will not get condensation on the VB. The temperature at the VB needs only be above the indoor dew point. And 16" of cellulose is not much. I put 32" of blow in fiberglass in my new house about 3 years ago. That amount was based on a payback analysis, although I will admit to a very small ROI for the last 6". I'd be more concerned about air leaks through the ceiling and interior and outside wall top plates. Electricians love to drill big holes to pull small wires through.

09-08-15, 08:40 PM	#16
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	Cellulose is cheap so 20"+ is easy to do. The big problem is that I have no eves to vent so there will be cellulose touching the roof boards from the wall up at that point. There may be a condensation issue which I want to avoid.

09-08-15, 09:49 PM	#17
Drake DIY Guy Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Mpls,MN Posts: 315 Thanks: 2 Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts	Sounds like you have added yard space to supply renewable fresh produce if you like to play in the dirt. I don't get into veggies that much but I have financed my perennial habit with a well awaite annual plant sale of the ever surplus once they get established. Roof ventilation is critical. We suffered thru the first several winter we where rebuilding our 50's dormered dollhouse that weeped black frost melt off roof felt on sunny winter days until I could get to solving the lack of ventilation. Not a single vents was installed in 2x8 dormer roof. Only have 5" overhang w/gutters but still put in continuous soffit and ridge venting - problem solved. I have seen vented facia if you only have it(and no gutters). Good luck on the many projects ahead.

09-09-15, 09:48 AM	#18
JRMichler Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Phillips, WI Posts: 109 Thanks: 10 Thanked 30 Times in 25 Posts	Roof ventilation is especially important in old houses with a lot of air leaks from the heated space. If the thermal envelope is fully air sealed AND has a good (not necessarily perfect) vapor barrier, then there is no need for any roof ventilation. My own house has the connection to the soffits sealed off, and the blown in insulation contacts the roof near the outside walls. No problems because of the air sealing and vapor barrier. On the other hand, I consulted for a local builder who built a house that had several inches of frost on the underside of the roof. He put in a high power, noisy roof exhaust fan which reduced the frost almost enough to prevent water damage when it melted in spring. The root cause was the gap around the chimney sending humid air up into the attic. Sealed that, eliminated the exhaust fan, problem solved.

09-09-15, 11:14 AM	#19
Drake DIY Guy Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Mpls,MN Posts: 315 Thanks: 2 Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts	I agree with you. Sounds like MS is retroing an older home as I did and might not be able to count on maybe any vapor barriers to speak of. One needs to really inspect structure to choose best retrofit plan. In my new build I am working on now I can insure a continuous HD vapor barrier thru out structure with the triple wall design I am using, not easy to do in a rebuild. At the time our house had the dormer added(before us) building code was unvented low pitch roof that probably let in moisture from both above and from interior. Very poor building practice.

09-09-15, 12:24 PM	#20
JRMichler Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Phillips, WI Posts: 109 Thanks: 10 Thanked 30 Times in 25 Posts	How true. My shop is a converted garage. The ceiling insulation was originally 12" of fiberglass batts over drywall with no vapor barrier. The drywall was not even taped. I taped the drywall, and that did not even stop the air leaks. So I ripped out the fiberglass and gave it to a friend to put in his attic. I then had a couple inches of foam installed. That sealed the air leaks. I then blew in two feet of fiberglass on top the foam to get a total R-value approaching 80. Now I have some humidity in the winter, and hardly use the dehumidifier in summer. Success!