replaced my 13L flush toilet with a 6L flush and oh my!

Quest · 05-29-13, 06:01 PM

boy! was that ever a good improvement?!

First, a bit of history: our area has been on water meter for over 10 yrs now. Our house is built 10 yrs ago (to local housing code) which allows the installation of 13L flush.

Naturally, our house came with the cheepest possible gravity fed flush toilet named Eljer.

With a family of 4 with 2 boys (youngest one is 3yrs old), we tend to go through a lot of 13L flush on the lower story toilet. This is especially true with my 3 yrs old where he would run 25miles worth of tP into the toilet bowl and repeatedly flush it to see it "unroll"....

So, we go through quite a bit of water usage (mostly unnecessary ones).

Wifey's concern has always been that those low flush (6L varieties) don't work to her satisfaction, citing the ones that she came across in the past always have some sort of issues: plugging, poor rim cleaning, insufficient flush power (requires a few more rounds of flushing in order to get rid of the solid matters, etc.), which was totally understandable.

Even though our local municipality offers rebates towards the purchasing/installtion/retrofitting to 4.8L HET toilets, fact of the matter is: HETs are still very expensive in our area (cheepest ones are still over 268bux + tax each), and the rebate isn't enough to cover even the basic cost for that....

To save on water consumption (at least cut that in half), I decided to get some 6L flush type and done some research on them. It would be either AS -Cadet3 ($$) but with lots of mixed reviews citing poor/inconsistent castings to all sorts of leaks; to Toto Drake ($$$$), no complaints good/solid reviews but very pricey in our area, to Foremost Opal($), which rated as MaP @1000gms also (cheepest of them all, made in china, blah blah blah).

Bought a Foremost Opal 2-pc toilet (6L) and installed it over the past weekend, and have done some serious testings with it: from laying down pieces of toilet paper along the inside of the rim above the water line (then flush), to real testing of waste matter, etc. and much to my amazement: although cheep to purchase: this thingy flushes and cleanse nicely even with 6L of water!

Rim is clean and the flush is consistent enough to rid of any stuck tP on the bowl area (common test to see if there's enough bowl/rim wash to push it away), and so on.

Overall, I'm quite satisfied with the purchase. I'm gonna get 1 more over the next couple of weekends and install that in our high traffic area toilet and watch our water bill drops down a bit further.

*something to share with you conservationist*

Quest-TD

Mikesolar · 05-30-13, 08:09 AM

Interesting, I bought the Formost from Rona 5 years ago and I have never needed to use the large flush button. I also have not had any problems with it at all. It cost about $350 at the time (IIRC)

Daox · 05-31-13, 12:55 PM

I've been casually searching for a replacement toilet as well. My downstairs bathroom has a low flow toilet already (1.5 gal / 6L), but it has issues... First off it just doesn't flush well. Not much oomph to get solids down. Second, the chain that operates the flushing valve binds or catches on something and it leaves that valve open to just run water for hours at a time if its not caught. I tried to do a dual flush conversion on it. That would fix the leaking problem and I could live with the weak flush, but its design does not work with the kit. Its annoying, but just not annoying enough to go spend a bunch of money on it...

Piwoslaw · 05-31-13, 03:54 PM

Quest, how about getting a dual flush for the downstairs? Since most flushes are non-solids, then no need wasting 6L when 3-4L will do the job just as well.

Quest · 06-02-13, 01:53 AM

Good idea, Piwoslaw.

Unfortunately, 2 things come to my mind: (1) most dual flush toilets sold in my area are either outrageously expensive, or (2) poor flush performance (rim wash is something that I value a lot), or a combination of both.

Most of the domestic brand name dual flush sold here such as Kohler, etc. are of terrible/inconsistent quality and performance, ditto with most of the AS Cadets that I can afford (been told that AS Cadet 4 works wonders, but given their(AS) performance and quality track records recently with the full series of Cadets (not Champions, out of my budget still) have been sub-par so far, I'm afraid that for the additional approx. 1 Litre of water saved when flushing liquid waste may be offsetted by the need of frequent bowl scrub (that brought up the rather horrifying experiences I had RE: Caroma toilets, claimed to be low flush (possibly 1st gen designed/manufactured in the early 90s, still being bought/sold here even until recently, which includes the 2 that our property management recently retrofitted in the office toilet just to cut water usage....absolutely horrid experience: plugs frequently, a very high/tall design which doesn't sit comfortably; it has very tall/narrow throat (or steep bowl) with very little water line down at the very bottom of the toilet. When flushed, the water creates a high, arc-like shaped spash from the rim straight into the opening area, but not enough water to give a complete bowl rinse, and freqently soiled toilet paper stuck on the inner side wall/bowl area and cannot be rid of even with repeated flushing, and the list goes on and on).

*sorry, just got interrupted by my 3yr old son, who just dump his big solid waste into my 6L flush and in just one flush, it took care of his mess + sufficient enough water for rim/bowl wash to rid of his rather sticky/pasty stuff....*

Anyways, while I understand that there are some high performance 4.8L (or 3.8L flush out there), or 4.8L/6L dual flush, fact is, it still very costly in our area to buy high performance HET or low flush toilets.

I'd really love to get my hands on some Toto, but even Drake 2pcs costs over 300bux +tax in my area so no thank you.

That 1L extra saving isn't gonna work out in my case, for it'll prolly take me at least 1+decade in order to offset the initial purchase price difference (when compared to my Foremost Opal 6L flush).

Thanks for the advice though...someday, just one day down the road, when the price of HET comes down to a sensible level, I may consider doing them (replacing toilets) again.

My take right now is to swap out 2 out of 3 of our 13L flush toilets to cut down on water consumption (replacing them with 6L meaning I should cut down by half, given all other variables equal).

Quest

nexsuperne · 06-02-13, 04:13 PM

How expensive!? Over here a 'bog in a box' with standard 6 litre tank is £50, or about $80. They should be doing environmentally friendly stuff free with every pizza!

Quest · 06-02-13, 08:52 PM

Hi nexsupreme,

Here in Western part of Canada: Toto Drake II (6L flush)is approx. 300bux +tax, AS Cadet 3 comfort height is about 169bux+tax; any typical dual flush (4.8L/6L 2 top button type) runs from 169+tax (the worst performing one) to standard ones by Kohler, begins around 260+tax. HET runs from 269+tax and up.... Higher performing ones (mixed reviews) runs around 400bux each and upwards. Toto ultramax starts around 440+tax and up (custom order, local big box store don't carry Toto)

AS Champion 4 starts @ 800bux+tax each, and Cadet flowwise begins around 540bux+tax..

My Foremost Opal (6L flush) only costs me 85+tax each.

Q.

Piwoslaw · 06-03-13, 03:38 AM

I wonder why they are so much more expensive than in Europe? Maybe because saving water not as mainstream? Or maybe they have to be reinforced for heavier loads

? If porcelain wasn't so heavy then it'd be cheaper to import across the pond

AC_Hacker · 06-03-13, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quest

...Unfortunately, 2 things come to my mind: (1) most dual flush toilets sold in my area are either outrageously expensive, or (2) poor flush performance...

My gal was having trouble with her old toilet... high water volume use, incomplete flushes, never completely shutting off.

I guided my gal friend through selecting a dual flush from one of the big-box stores (Home Depot).

We were looking for:

highest 'flush power' rating (which usually means a large diameter opening at the bottom of the tank and also a smooth-glazed P-trap).
dual flush
low price

She got just what she wanted for $125 (US). We got it installed in about 30 minutes.

She's had it for about three months now, and never an incomplete flush. It just takes care of business and uses very little water.

Happy camper...

-AC

Quest · 06-03-13, 03:37 PM

energy efficiency and conservation is not a high-priority in our area.

Until until most recent housing code changes (1st recent change was around 2006, where housing code forced home builders to go down from 13L flush to 6L flush; in 2012, from 6L flush to 4.8L HET flush.

While here in PNW north, most folks are fairly conscienious about energy efficiency/conservations and such (such as cold water laundry detergent, driving smaller cars, use CFL lamps to replace tungsten filament lightbulbs, etc.), but when it comes to bigger pictures such as low flush toilets, low-water shower heads, etc. most folks are ignorant about it.

Also: compounded with the reluctance to changes RE: low flow shower heads, toilets, and aerated faucet heads, etc. one wonders why low flush toilets cost so much more in this area?

Q.

05-29-13, 06:01 PM	#1
Quest Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 109 Thanks: 13 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	replaced my 13L flush toilet with a 6L flush and oh my! boy! was that ever a good improvement?! First, a bit of history: our area has been on water meter for over 10 yrs now. Our house is built 10 yrs ago (to local housing code) which allows the installation of 13L flush. Naturally, our house came with the cheepest possible gravity fed flush toilet named Eljer. With a family of 4 with 2 boys (youngest one is 3yrs old), we tend to go through a lot of 13L flush on the lower story toilet. This is especially true with my 3 yrs old where he would run 25miles worth of tP into the toilet bowl and repeatedly flush it to see it "unroll".... So, we go through quite a bit of water usage (mostly unnecessary ones). Wifey's concern has always been that those low flush (6L varieties) don't work to her satisfaction, citing the ones that she came across in the past always have some sort of issues: plugging, poor rim cleaning, insufficient flush power (requires a few more rounds of flushing in order to get rid of the solid matters, etc.), which was totally understandable. Even though our local municipality offers rebates towards the purchasing/installtion/retrofitting to 4.8L HET toilets, fact of the matter is: HETs are still very expensive in our area (cheepest ones are still over 268bux + tax each), and the rebate isn't enough to cover even the basic cost for that.... To save on water consumption (at least cut that in half), I decided to get some 6L flush type and done some research on them. It would be either AS -Cadet3 ($$) but with lots of mixed reviews citing poor/inconsistent castings to all sorts of leaks; to Toto Drake ($$$$), no complaints good/solid reviews but very pricey in our area, to Foremost Opal($), which rated as MaP @1000gms also (cheepest of them all, made in china, blah blah blah). Bought a Foremost Opal 2-pc toilet (6L) and installed it over the past weekend, and have done some serious testings with it: from laying down pieces of toilet paper along the inside of the rim above the water line (then flush), to real testing of waste matter, etc. and much to my amazement: although cheep to purchase: this thingy flushes and cleanse nicely even with 6L of water! Rim is clean and the flush is consistent enough to rid of any stuck tP on the bowl area (common test to see if there's enough bowl/rim wash to push it away), and so on. Overall, I'm quite satisfied with the purchase. I'm gonna get 1 more over the next couple of weekends and install that in our high traffic area toilet and watch our water bill drops down a bit further. something to share with you conservationist Quest-TD

05-31-13, 12:55 PM	#3
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	I've been casually searching for a replacement toilet as well. My downstairs bathroom has a low flow toilet already (1.5 gal / 6L), but it has issues... First off it just doesn't flush well. Not much oomph to get solids down. Second, the chain that operates the flushing valve binds or catches on something and it leaves that valve open to just run water for hours at a time if its not caught. I tried to do a dual flush conversion on it. That would fix the leaking problem and I could live with the weak flush, but its design does not work with the kit. Its annoying, but just not annoying enough to go spend a bunch of money on it... __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

05-31-13, 03:54 PM	#4
Piwoslaw Super Moderator Join Date: May 2009 Location: Warsaw, Poland Posts: 964 Thanks: 189 Thanked 111 Times in 87 Posts	Quest, how about getting a dual flush for the downstairs? Since most flushes are non-solids, then no need wasting 6L when 3-4L will do the job just as well. __________________ Ecorenovation - the bottomless piggy bank that tries to tame the energy hog.

06-03-13, 03:38 AM	#8
Piwoslaw Super Moderator Join Date: May 2009 Location: Warsaw, Poland Posts: 964 Thanks: 189 Thanked 111 Times in 87 Posts	I wonder why they are so much more expensive than in Europe? Maybe because saving water not as mainstream? Or maybe they have to be reinforced for heavier loads? If porcelain wasn't so heavy then it'd be cheaper to import across the pond __________________ Ecorenovation - the bottomless piggy bank that tries to tame the energy hog.

05-30-13, 08:09 AM	#2
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	Interesting, I bought the Formost from Rona 5 years ago and I have never needed to use the large flush button. I also have not had any problems with it at all. It cost about $350 at the time (IIRC)

06-02-13, 01:53 AM	#5
Quest Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 109 Thanks: 13 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	Good idea, Piwoslaw. Unfortunately, 2 things come to my mind: (1) most dual flush toilets sold in my area are either outrageously expensive, or (2) poor flush performance (rim wash is something that I value a lot), or a combination of both. Most of the domestic brand name dual flush sold here such as Kohler, etc. are of terrible/inconsistent quality and performance, ditto with most of the AS Cadets that I can afford (been told that AS Cadet 4 works wonders, but given their(AS) performance and quality track records recently with the full series of Cadets (not Champions, out of my budget still) have been sub-par so far, I'm afraid that for the additional approx. 1 Litre of water saved when flushing liquid waste may be offsetted by the need of frequent bowl scrub (that brought up the rather horrifying experiences I had RE: Caroma toilets, claimed to be low flush (possibly 1st gen designed/manufactured in the early 90s, still being bought/sold here even until recently, which includes the 2 that our property management recently retrofitted in the office toilet just to cut water usage....absolutely horrid experience: plugs frequently, a very high/tall design which doesn't sit comfortably; it has very tall/narrow throat (or steep bowl) with very little water line down at the very bottom of the toilet. When flushed, the water creates a high, arc-like shaped spash from the rim straight into the opening area, but not enough water to give a complete bowl rinse, and freqently soiled toilet paper stuck on the inner side wall/bowl area and cannot be rid of even with repeated flushing, and the list goes on and on). sorry, just got interrupted by my 3yr old son, who just dump his big solid waste into my 6L flush and in just one flush, it took care of his mess + sufficient enough water for rim/bowl wash to rid of his rather sticky/pasty stuff.... Anyways, while I understand that there are some high performance 4.8L (or 3.8L flush out there), or 4.8L/6L dual flush, fact is, it still very costly in our area to buy high performance HET or low flush toilets. I'd really love to get my hands on some Toto, but even Drake 2pcs costs over 300bux +tax in my area so no thank you. That 1L extra saving isn't gonna work out in my case, for it'll prolly take me at least 1+decade in order to offset the initial purchase price difference (when compared to my Foremost Opal 6L flush). Thanks for the advice though...someday, just one day down the road, when the price of HET comes down to a sensible level, I may consider doing them (replacing toilets) again. My take right now is to swap out 2 out of 3 of our 13L flush toilets to cut down on water consumption (replacing them with 6L meaning I should cut down by half, given all other variables equal). Quest

06-02-13, 04:13 PM	#6
nexsuperne Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: 30 miles east of London, UK Posts: 88 Thanks: 12 Thanked 19 Times in 18 Posts	How expensive!? Over here a 'bog in a box' with standard 6 litre tank is £50, or about $80. They should be doing environmentally friendly stuff free with every pizza!

06-02-13, 08:52 PM	#7
Quest Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 109 Thanks: 13 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	Hi nexsupreme, Here in Western part of Canada: Toto Drake II (6L flush)is approx. 300bux +tax, AS Cadet 3 comfort height is about 169bux+tax; any typical dual flush (4.8L/6L 2 top button type) runs from 169+tax (the worst performing one) to standard ones by Kohler, begins around 260+tax. HET runs from 269+tax and up.... Higher performing ones (mixed reviews) runs around 400bux each and upwards. Toto ultramax starts around 440+tax and up (custom order, local big box store don't carry Toto) AS Champion 4 starts @ 800bux+tax each, and Cadet flowwise begins around 540bux+tax.. My Foremost Opal (6L flush) only costs me 85+tax each. Q.

06-03-13, 03:37 PM	#10
Quest Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 109 Thanks: 13 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	energy efficiency and conservation is not a high-priority in our area. Until until most recent housing code changes (1st recent change was around 2006, where housing code forced home builders to go down from 13L flush to 6L flush; in 2012, from 6L flush to 4.8L HET flush. While here in PNW north, most folks are fairly conscienious about energy efficiency/conservations and such (such as cold water laundry detergent, driving smaller cars, use CFL lamps to replace tungsten filament lightbulbs, etc.), but when it comes to bigger pictures such as low flush toilets, low-water shower heads, etc. most folks are ignorant about it. Also: compounded with the reluctance to changes RE: low flow shower heads, toilets, and aerated faucet heads, etc. one wonders why low flush toilets cost so much more in this area? Q.