11,000 BTU DX GEO Heating - Page 11

MEMPHIS91 · 11-23-15, 06:35 AM

Ok so I pulled the compressor today and zipped it open.

*** Warning sensitive content! Not for the faint of heart! Will be viewing a completely naked compressor! If you can not control your lust please hit your back button now! Continue at your own risk! ***

This is with the top off, the rotor turns freely, no sign of oil.

This is with the bottom off, when I turned her upside down about 2 tsp of oil was in the case.

And the is the inside with the cover off. NO OIL, not even a thin film.

I would have guessed there would be a lot more oil needed to make the compressor run. I was confused though because I saw NO reason why the rotor would not turn. Unless I shorted out a winding due to over heating.

So basically I have only a hint that I should find another compressor and add more oil.

Any ideas guys?

jeff5may · 11-23-15, 02:08 PM

How would you feel if you only had a bad start capacitor? It could be a possibility. Since the motor was tripping out under high current, the other possible causes are locked rotor and bad windings. These rotary pots are pretty tolerant of ingesting liquid in small amounts.

stevehull · 11-23-15, 03:09 PM

Another possibility is that the current source is not high enough to supply the compressor windings under load. High power draw drops voltage, amps go up and result is burned out coil.

Capacitor is a very easy check as well as continuity of coils with proper resistance .

Steve

MEMPHIS91 · 11-23-15, 03:46 PM

Jeff, Steven, I SURE HOPE NOT!

It was loading with 40 amps on my meter and would turn on, then off, then on then off, then blow a fuse.

I was able to grab a 7,500 BTU compressor today. 35 LRA. I think I like this size better anyway.

Gonna get it on tonight.

How do I check the cap?

stevehull · 11-23-15, 05:01 PM

The best way to check a capacitor is to use "a capacitor checker". Ha! These have an output in Farads (mF or uF) and you can compare the meter with the plate descriptor on the cap. Not an expensive meter.

For a quick check, I use an ohmmeter and then reverse the lead polarity. One way it charges, the other way it doesn't. A shorted cap is truly dead with either polarity.

One mean way to check it is to put on two metal leads, one to each terminal - charge it up and toss it to a "friend". Depending on the scream, you know the capacity . . . .

But the best way is to replace.

Steve

MEMPHIS91 · 11-23-15, 05:32 PM

Didn't know I had one but I do!
It is rated for 60uf, it reads 1.7nf.......... Yep its dead. So the compressor was probably ok, BUT I'm glad it happened because it would have died from lack of oil anyway.
Dang, always always check first.
Another good thing that came out of this was I now FULLY understand what is going on in those little compressors now.

jeff5may · 11-23-15, 05:56 PM

My go-to dmm has a cap checker on it. It's a "lowly" fluke 12. It doesn't read current, though. I have learnt my lesson in that regard: if I really need to measure amps on something, a non-contact clamp won't blow a fuse in my meter. I have had more meters than I would like to count, but this one refuses to get lost or stolen, and has survived everything I have done to it. I really appreciate a good tool (sniff)...

That compressor really could have had more oil in the sump. Do you think you can weld it back together?

stevehull · 11-23-15, 06:12 PM

Memphis,

Remember you can "create" a 60uF capacitor out of two 30 uF or three 20 uF capacitors. When I need a specific one, I typically can't find that exact value, but I can almost always put a few capacitors in parallel and create the necessary value. A bit higher is also OK, but never less capacity.

Any voltage rating ABOVE the rating on the original capacitor will work.

Once the motor works, I then order the exact replacement from eBay.

Then, only minutes later, (after the order is placed), the specific value single capacitor is found in the junk box . . . . and in the exact correct physical configuration.

Why is that - or does it only happen to me?

Steve

MEMPHIS91 · 11-23-15, 06:49 PM

Jeff, so you are agreeing it looks as though more oil is needed!
If I could get ask the metal shavings out of the windings I would sure give welding it back up a try. Lol

Steven, thanks! I have plenty of capacitors laying around, I should have the right one. This small 7,500 btu only needs 30uf.

I went ahead and made my oil return line to all 1/4", it was half 1/4" and half 1/8". I will also be running larger wire to the entire machine.

Vacuuming the system now.

MEMPHIS91 · 11-24-15, 05:25 PM

I got a lot to update on so bare with me. I put on the 7,500 (39.5 LRA) compressor and as expected it worked, just didn't do much heating. It stayed on all night to keep up. Use 6.5 kwh of power and only kept it at 58F.

I have been thinking and thinking, here is what I came up with. I remembered how someone mentioned in my heat pump water heater build that I needed the suction line to get cold in order to cool the compressor. This was also when I noticed the water getting hot much faster.
My conclusion is that my evap (DX loop) IS TOO BIG. No matter how cold (20F), or how big a compressor (11,000 BTU) the return line stays no less than 65F. I believe this to be other reason for the last compressor failure.
So I started looking for a big compressor, and as luck would have it I did a call for a HVAC guy today and was given this beauty. Friedrich PDE15K5SF-A Friedrich PDE15K5SF 15 000 BTU Packaged Terminal Air Conditioner with 5 0 KW Electric Heat
http://www.sylvane.com/media/documen...ers-manual.pdf

I hope this will get enough flow through the DX loop to chill the suction line. If not I have a 2 ton compressor I can put on it.

Problem being I don't have 220V in the greenhouse, but that can be solved because I will need 220V in there when I doing the house geothermal system anyway.
So some thing to consider..... This thing is R410A, so I will either have to drain the oil and use mineral oil for R290 or I can drain my oil separator and use R410A. I think I will gain capacity (BTUS) by switching to R290. Thoughts? Or am I totally wrong?
Also should I use the existing evap or condenser? The condenser looks bigger but doesn't have the cool squirrel cage, speed adjustable fan. Plus it has a air filter.
Next should I try to hack the existing controls and just use the one thermostat for the fish tank? Or should I just slap on the controls like I have them now?

Tons to consider, tons to research. But this time this machine is going to work. (I HOPE).
Thanks guys for your help and time!

11-23-15, 06:35 AM	#101
MEMPHIS91 Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Oxford, MS USA Posts: 496 Thanks: 69 Thanked 87 Times in 61 Posts	Ok so I pulled the compressor today and zipped it open. * Warning sensitive content! Not for the faint of heart! Will be viewing a completely naked compressor! If you can not control your lust please hit your back button now! Continue at your own risk! * This is with the top off, the rotor turns freely, no sign of oil. This is with the bottom off, when I turned her upside down about 2 tsp of oil was in the case. And the is the inside with the cover off. NO OIL, not even a thin film. I would have guessed there would be a lot more oil needed to make the compressor run. I was confused though because I saw NO reason why the rotor would not turn. Unless I shorted out a winding due to over heating. So basically I have only a hint that I should find another compressor and add more oil. Any ideas guys? Attached Thumbnails __________________ שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל ה' אֱלֹהֵינוּ ה' אֶחָד

11-23-15, 03:09 PM	#103
stevehull Steve Hull Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: hilly, tree covered Arcadia, OK USA Posts: 826 Thanks: 241 Thanked 165 Times in 123 Posts	Another possibility is that the current source is not high enough to supply the compressor windings under load. High power draw drops voltage, amps go up and result is burned out coil. Capacitor is a very easy check as well as continuity of coils with proper resistance . Steve __________________ consulting on geothermal heating/cooling & rational energy use since 1990

11-23-15, 03:46 PM	#104
MEMPHIS91 Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Oxford, MS USA Posts: 496 Thanks: 69 Thanked 87 Times in 61 Posts	Jeff, Steven, I SURE HOPE NOT! It was loading with 40 amps on my meter and would turn on, then off, then on then off, then blow a fuse. I was able to grab a 7,500 BTU compressor today. 35 LRA. I think I like this size better anyway. Gonna get it on tonight. How do I check the cap? __________________ שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל ה' אֱלֹהֵינוּ ה' אֶחָד

11-23-15, 05:01 PM	#105
stevehull Steve Hull Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: hilly, tree covered Arcadia, OK USA Posts: 826 Thanks: 241 Thanked 165 Times in 123 Posts	The best way to check a capacitor is to use "a capacitor checker". Ha! These have an output in Farads (mF or uF) and you can compare the meter with the plate descriptor on the cap. Not an expensive meter. For a quick check, I use an ohmmeter and then reverse the lead polarity. One way it charges, the other way it doesn't. A shorted cap is truly dead with either polarity. One mean way to check it is to put on two metal leads, one to each terminal - charge it up and toss it to a "friend". Depending on the scream, you know the capacity . . . . But the best way is to replace. Steve __________________ consulting on geothermal heating/cooling & rational energy use since 1990 Last edited by stevehull; 11-23-15 at 06:03 PM..

11-23-15, 05:32 PM	#106
MEMPHIS91 Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Oxford, MS USA Posts: 496 Thanks: 69 Thanked 87 Times in 61 Posts	Didn't know I had one but I do! It is rated for 60uf, it reads 1.7nf.......... Yep its dead. So the compressor was probably ok, BUT I'm glad it happened because it would have died from lack of oil anyway. Dang, always always check first. Another good thing that came out of this was I now FULLY understand what is going on in those little compressors now. __________________ שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל ה' אֱלֹהֵינוּ ה' אֶחָד

11-23-15, 02:08 PM	#102
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,428 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	How would you feel if you only had a bad start capacitor? It could be a possibility. Since the motor was tripping out under high current, the other possible causes are locked rotor and bad windings. These rotary pots are pretty tolerant of ingesting liquid in small amounts.

11-23-15, 05:56 PM	#107
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,428 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	My go-to dmm has a cap checker on it. It's a "lowly" fluke 12. It doesn't read current, though. I have learnt my lesson in that regard: if I really need to measure amps on something, a non-contact clamp won't blow a fuse in my meter. I have had more meters than I would like to count, but this one refuses to get lost or stolen, and has survived everything I have done to it. I really appreciate a good tool (sniff)... That compressor really could have had more oil in the sump. Do you think you can weld it back together?

11-23-15, 06:12 PM	#108
stevehull Steve Hull Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: hilly, tree covered Arcadia, OK USA Posts: 826 Thanks: 241 Thanked 165 Times in 123 Posts	Memphis, Remember you can "create" a 60uF capacitor out of two 30 uF or three 20 uF capacitors. When I need a specific one, I typically can't find that exact value, but I can almost always put a few capacitors in parallel and create the necessary value. A bit higher is also OK, but never less capacity. Any voltage rating ABOVE the rating on the original capacitor will work. Once the motor works, I then order the exact replacement from eBay. Then, only minutes later, (after the order is placed), the specific value single capacitor is found in the junk box . . . . and in the exact correct physical configuration. Why is that - or does it only happen to me? Steve __________________ consulting on geothermal heating/cooling & rational energy use since 1990

11-23-15, 06:49 PM	#109
MEMPHIS91 Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Oxford, MS USA Posts: 496 Thanks: 69 Thanked 87 Times in 61 Posts	Jeff, so you are agreeing it looks as though more oil is needed! If I could get ask the metal shavings out of the windings I would sure give welding it back up a try. Lol Steven, thanks! I have plenty of capacitors laying around, I should have the right one. This small 7,500 btu only needs 30uf. I went ahead and made my oil return line to all 1/4", it was half 1/4" and half 1/8". I will also be running larger wire to the entire machine. Vacuuming the system now. __________________ שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל ה' אֱלֹהֵינוּ ה' אֶחָד

11-24-15, 05:25 PM	#110
MEMPHIS91 Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Oxford, MS USA Posts: 496 Thanks: 69 Thanked 87 Times in 61 Posts	I got a lot to update on so bare with me. I put on the 7,500 (39.5 LRA) compressor and as expected it worked, just didn't do much heating. It stayed on all night to keep up. Use 6.5 kwh of power and only kept it at 58F. I have been thinking and thinking, here is what I came up with. I remembered how someone mentioned in my heat pump water heater build that I needed the suction line to get cold in order to cool the compressor. This was also when I noticed the water getting hot much faster. My conclusion is that my evap (DX loop) IS TOO BIG. No matter how cold (20F), or how big a compressor (11,000 BTU) the return line stays no less than 65F. I believe this to be other reason for the last compressor failure. So I started looking for a big compressor, and as luck would have it I did a call for a HVAC guy today and was given this beauty. Friedrich PDE15K5SF-A Friedrich PDE15K5SF 15 000 BTU Packaged Terminal Air Conditioner with 5 0 KW Electric Heat http://www.sylvane.com/media/documen...ers-manual.pdf I hope this will get enough flow through the DX loop to chill the suction line. If not I have a 2 ton compressor I can put on it. Problem being I don't have 220V in the greenhouse, but that can be solved because I will need 220V in there when I doing the house geothermal system anyway. So some thing to consider..... This thing is R410A, so I will either have to drain the oil and use mineral oil for R290 or I can drain my oil separator and use R410A. I think I will gain capacity (BTUS) by switching to R290. Thoughts? Or am I totally wrong? Also should I use the existing evap or condenser? The condenser looks bigger but doesn't have the cool squirrel cage, speed adjustable fan. Plus it has a air filter. Next should I try to hack the existing controls and just use the one thermostat for the fish tank? Or should I just slap on the controls like I have them now? Tons to consider, tons to research. But this time this machine is going to work. (I HOPE). Thanks guys for your help and time! Attached Thumbnails __________________ שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל ה' אֱלֹהֵינוּ ה' אֶחָד