Do live in Oklahoma? New solar fee..

Xringer · 04-18-14, 12:15 PM

Oklahoma Will Charge Customers Who Install Their Own Solar Panels | ThinkProgress

"Oklahoma residents who produce their own energy through solar panels or small wind turbines on their property will now be charged an additional fee, the result of a new bill passed by the state legislature and expected to be signed into law by Gov. Mary Fallin (R).

On Monday, S.B. 1456 passed the state House 83-5 after no debate. The measure creates a new class of customers: those who install distributed power generation systems like solar panels or small wind turbines on their property and sell the excess energy back to the grid. While those with systems already installed won’t be affected, the new class of customers will now be charged a monthly fee — a shift that happened quickly and caught many in the state off guard.

“We knew nothing about it and all of a sudden it’s attached to some other bill,” Ctaci Gary, owner of Sun City Oklahoma, told ThinkProgress. “It just appeared out of nowhere.”
"

The government can never have too much money....

pinballlooking · 04-18-14, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer

Oklahoma Will Charge Customers Who Install Their Own Solar Panels | ThinkProgress

"Oklahoma residents who produce their own energy through solar panels or small wind turbines on their property will now be charged an additional fee, the result of a new bill passed by the state legislature and expected to be signed into law by Gov. Mary Fallin (R).

On Monday, S.B. 1456 passed the state House 83-5 after no debate. The measure creates a new class of customers: those who install distributed power generation systems like solar panels or small wind turbines on their property and sell the excess energy back to the grid. While those with systems already installed won’t be affected, the new class of customers will now be charged a monthly fee — a shift that happened quickly and caught many in the state off guard.

“We knew nothing about it and all of a sudden it’s attached to some other bill,” Ctaci Gary, owner of Sun City Oklahoma, told ThinkProgress. “It just appeared out of nowhere.”
"

The government can never have too much money....

This is a slippery slope. They are giving tax breaks to encourage solar and they want to charge you extra for having it?
Duke power here is trying to change the net metering to only credit you wholesale not retail.
They forget that we deliver power at peak times and they do not give up peak rates.

Here in SC they just purposed that EV cars the Volt and hybrid cars pay a fee of $60 each year because we do not use enough gas to help pay for the roads. Clean diesel that get the same MPG as a prius but were not included in the fee. Maybe they can just call it a good gas MPG charge.
I think they defeated it this year. The same state gave me 2,000 to buy my car. Crazy!

where2 · 04-18-14, 05:08 PM

An ULSD powered vehicle typically pays $0.05 more per gallon in road taxes than a gas vehicle getting the same fuel economy. (two VW TDI's in my driveway with >100k miles each). Where I live, a Hybrid suburban can legally drive in the HOV lane with just the driver, because it's a "Hybrid", ignoring the fact that my 2004 TDI gets 2x the fuel economy of a hybrid suburban.

Time to start thinking about how to do an off grid setup for my next property.

Elcam84 · 04-18-14, 07:53 PM

I read that recently as well. It's not surprising as OK has a whole lot of goofy taxes. Most of them are very odd personal property taxes.

Here in TX we don't have net metering either. And I can see why we and others don't. Say you pump in $1 of electricity and they sell that electricity to someone else for $1. They have had to transport and distribute that on their system for free so you made a buck and the elec co made nothing for their troubles and if there were allot of solar systems installed here that would be a loss of quite a bit of revenue because electricity is extremely cheap to generate hence the market price being in the 4 cent range their cost is less than that to produce it. The major cost of electricity isn't generation but delivery.

So those states that have net metering the solar customers are getting a pretty sweet deal at the cost of the elec company profits. Those of us without net metering are paying the real costs of use of the grid instead of being subsidized.

I know it may sound harsh to some by playing devils advocate but that's the commercial side of things.

One other interesting thing relating to electricity... The last wendys we wired up I was talking to the elec company guy when he was putting the meter in. They have to check the accuracy of the meter several times on site before wrapping it all up. Checkiing phase angles etc. If the meter reading is off in your favor you are liable for the difference of the last 6 months. If it's off in the elec companies favor they are liable for the amount since the meter was put in. So they make sure it's reading right including lots of very complicated math to figure it out. In a commercial setting it's a big deal. An all electric Wendys has a service of 800 amps per phase. (3 pipes 4 3/4" copper wires per pipe) and any discrepancy would add up quick.

where2 · 04-19-14, 10:42 AM

That $1 worth of electricity I dropped into the grid at noon on Tuesday likely traversed the grid all the way to my neighbors house, about 300 feet. It didn't traverse the grid out of the town I live in and go 57 miles back to the power plant. Thus the power company made a hefty profit on the transport costs they charged my neighbor who paid full retail rate for that $1 worth of electricity. The power company also got my $1 worth of electricity at peak rate if we were playing time of use games, and the $1 worth of electricity I was returned likely came back at off peak rate at 10PM when my nest kicks the A/C on for an hour.

Do I believe there is value in my ability to give and borrow from the grid, but the utility is already tracking my delivered and what I've sent out. Charge me $0.02/kWh on what I sent out.

pinballlooking · 04-19-14, 01:18 PM

How about when a few of us produce power make it so they don’t have to add more capacity.
There has to be value it that for them. the already make so they can’t have more than 1 or 2% solar pre segment so the power company will not go broke any time soon.
HI already has places that have hit the limit. So however installed solar first gets to have it but not others.

stevehull · 04-19-14, 03:46 PM

I posted (here) on this exact bill about a week or so ago. It still must pass through the Corporation Commission, but I expect it will sail through there.

As for me, it does not affect coops and I am in one (CREC). But I may accelerate my purchase of a 10kW system (just buy 1 kW) to be "grandfathered" in.

I certainly do understand the cost of using the grid as a storage battery and, long term there needs to be support of the grid. But Oklahoma is a superb state for solar PV and yet we are very low in actual number of installations.

This does not seem to be the time to quash a developing resource.

And we get no state tax credit for solar or wind as small consumers. But if you are buying a 500 mW wind turbine, you can get production tax credit . . . .

Frustrated,

Steve

Xringer · 04-19-14, 04:06 PM

I have a feeling that some people in goverment look at PV owners as being rich folks.
Those KW hours are the same as money. It's money that just rolls in on every sunny day.

They wonder if it's taxable income? Is there a line on the tax form for KW hours yet?

So what's the next thing that's going to pop into their little minds?
Keeping it fair, leveling the playing field and redistributing the wealth.?. Of KW hours..

I wonder if the NSA is sending spy satellite photos of my backyard solar farm
to city hall??

pinballlooking · 04-19-14, 04:16 PM

Here if you use net metering it just off sets your power usage so you don’t get charged taxes on it.

But if you choose to have them pay you for all power produced then they send you a 1099 so you pay taxes on all the power you produced. We can get paid above retail right but they limit you on system size and they send you a 1099 so it is not worth it to me. my system is too big to qualify and I sure don’t need another 1099.

They also charge you a second meter fee every month. Because you need a second meter for selling all power back.

Elcam84 · 04-19-14, 09:01 PM

Do you not have the digital meters in SC? Here they just remote reprogram the meter from the elec company. The meter knows which way the current is going as there are arrows on it but you don't get paid for any of the power unless you have the elec company change it on your account and reprogram it.

In the end no matter what someone is going to see people with solar etc and figure out how it can be taxed and feed so they get their cut.

We have a a co-op elec company that their area starts about a mile from us. Luckily we aren't in it because their rates are usually higher and if you do have solar you don't get net metering or anything else all the power you put into the grid has become theirs. They also maintain their own infractructure which is odd in TX as most everything is Oncor for delivery as they had to split TXU up into seperate generation and delivery companies due to deregulation which allowed prices to go up.

As for lessening the need for new plants. Well here they have shut down or pickeled many many elec plants in the last 10 years because there were more generating plants than needed. The nat gas plant on the lake here was pickled but looks like they are doing some upgrading so it may come back online when needed.

04-18-14, 12:15 PM	#1
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Do live in Oklahoma? New solar fee.. Oklahoma Will Charge Customers Who Install Their Own Solar Panels \| ThinkProgress "Oklahoma residents who produce their own energy through solar panels or small wind turbines on their property will now be charged an additional fee, the result of a new bill passed by the state legislature and expected to be signed into law by Gov. Mary Fallin (R). On Monday, S.B. 1456 passed the state House 83-5 after no debate. The measure creates a new class of customers: those who install distributed power generation systems like solar panels or small wind turbines on their property and sell the excess energy back to the grid. While those with systems already installed won’t be affected, the new class of customers will now be charged a monthly fee — a shift that happened quickly and caught many in the state off guard. “We knew nothing about it and all of a sudden it’s attached to some other bill,” Ctaci Gary, owner of Sun City Oklahoma, told ThinkProgress. “It just appeared out of nowhere.” " The government can never have too much money.... __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

04-19-14, 01:18 PM	#6
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	How about when a few of us produce power make it so they don’t have to add more capacity. There has to be value it that for them. the already make so they can’t have more than 1 or 2% solar pre segment so the power company will not go broke any time soon. HI already has places that have hit the limit. So however installed solar first gets to have it but not others. Last edited by pinballlooking; 04-19-14 at 04:12 PM..

04-19-14, 03:46 PM	#7
stevehull Steve Hull Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: hilly, tree covered Arcadia, OK USA Posts: 826 Thanks: 241 Thanked 165 Times in 123 Posts	I posted (here) on this exact bill about a week or so ago. It still must pass through the Corporation Commission, but I expect it will sail through there. As for me, it does not affect coops and I am in one (CREC). But I may accelerate my purchase of a 10kW system (just buy 1 kW) to be "grandfathered" in. I certainly do understand the cost of using the grid as a storage battery and, long term there needs to be support of the grid. But Oklahoma is a superb state for solar PV and yet we are very low in actual number of installations. This does not seem to be the time to quash a developing resource. And we get no state tax credit for solar or wind as small consumers. But if you are buying a 500 mW wind turbine, you can get production tax credit . . . . Frustrated, Steve __________________ consulting on geothermal heating/cooling & rational energy use since 1990

04-19-14, 04:06 PM	#8
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	I have a feeling that some people in goverment look at PV owners as being rich folks. Those KW hours are the same as money. It's money that just rolls in on every sunny day. They wonder if it's taxable income? Is there a line on the tax form for KW hours yet? So what's the next thing that's going to pop into their little minds? Keeping it fair, leveling the playing field and redistributing the wealth.?. Of KW hours.. I wonder if the NSA is sending spy satellite photos of my backyard solar farm to city hall?? __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

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04-18-14, 05:08 PM	#3
where2 DIY Geek Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 401 Thanks: 74 Thanked 83 Times in 73 Posts	An ULSD powered vehicle typically pays $0.05 more per gallon in road taxes than a gas vehicle getting the same fuel economy. (two VW TDI's in my driveway with >100k miles each). Where I live, a Hybrid suburban can legally drive in the HOV lane with just the driver, because it's a "Hybrid", ignoring the fact that my 2004 TDI gets 2x the fuel economy of a hybrid suburban. Time to start thinking about how to do an off grid setup for my next property.

04-18-14, 07:53 PM	#4
Elcam84 Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: TX Posts: 275 Thanks: 2 Thanked 31 Times in 24 Posts	I read that recently as well. It's not surprising as OK has a whole lot of goofy taxes. Most of them are very odd personal property taxes. Here in TX we don't have net metering either. And I can see why we and others don't. Say you pump in $1 of electricity and they sell that electricity to someone else for $1. They have had to transport and distribute that on their system for free so you made a buck and the elec co made nothing for their troubles and if there were allot of solar systems installed here that would be a loss of quite a bit of revenue because electricity is extremely cheap to generate hence the market price being in the 4 cent range their cost is less than that to produce it. The major cost of electricity isn't generation but delivery. So those states that have net metering the solar customers are getting a pretty sweet deal at the cost of the elec company profits. Those of us without net metering are paying the real costs of use of the grid instead of being subsidized. I know it may sound harsh to some by playing devils advocate but that's the commercial side of things. One other interesting thing relating to electricity... The last wendys we wired up I was talking to the elec company guy when he was putting the meter in. They have to check the accuracy of the meter several times on site before wrapping it all up. Checkiing phase angles etc. If the meter reading is off in your favor you are liable for the difference of the last 6 months. If it's off in the elec companies favor they are liable for the amount since the meter was put in. So they make sure it's reading right including lots of very complicated math to figure it out. In a commercial setting it's a big deal. An all electric Wendys has a service of 800 amps per phase. (3 pipes 4 3/4" copper wires per pipe) and any discrepancy would add up quick.

04-19-14, 10:42 AM	#5
where2 DIY Geek Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 401 Thanks: 74 Thanked 83 Times in 73 Posts	That $1 worth of electricity I dropped into the grid at noon on Tuesday likely traversed the grid all the way to my neighbors house, about 300 feet. It didn't traverse the grid out of the town I live in and go 57 miles back to the power plant. Thus the power company made a hefty profit on the transport costs they charged my neighbor who paid full retail rate for that $1 worth of electricity. The power company also got my $1 worth of electricity at peak rate if we were playing time of use games, and the $1 worth of electricity I was returned likely came back at off peak rate at 10PM when my nest kicks the A/C on for an hour. Do I believe there is value in my ability to give and borrow from the grid, but the utility is already tracking my delivered and what I've sent out. Charge me $0.02/kWh on what I sent out.

04-19-14, 04:16 PM	#9
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	Here if you use net metering it just off sets your power usage so you don’t get charged taxes on it. But if you choose to have them pay you for all power produced then they send you a 1099 so you pay taxes on all the power you produced. We can get paid above retail right but they limit you on system size and they send you a 1099 so it is not worth it to me. my system is too big to qualify and I sure don’t need another 1099. They also charge you a second meter fee every month. Because you need a second meter for selling all power back.

04-19-14, 09:01 PM	#10
Elcam84 Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: TX Posts: 275 Thanks: 2 Thanked 31 Times in 24 Posts	Do you not have the digital meters in SC? Here they just remote reprogram the meter from the elec company. The meter knows which way the current is going as there are arrows on it but you don't get paid for any of the power unless you have the elec company change it on your account and reprogram it. In the end no matter what someone is going to see people with solar etc and figure out how it can be taxed and feed so they get their cut. We have a a co-op elec company that their area starts about a mile from us. Luckily we aren't in it because their rates are usually higher and if you do have solar you don't get net metering or anything else all the power you put into the grid has become theirs. They also maintain their own infractructure which is odd in TX as most everything is Oncor for delivery as they had to split TXU up into seperate generation and delivery companies due to deregulation which allowed prices to go up. As for lessening the need for new plants. Well here they have shut down or pickeled many many elec plants in the last 10 years because there were more generating plants than needed. The nat gas plant on the lake here was pickled but looks like they are doing some upgrading so it may come back online when needed.