DIY Hydronic Floor Heating - Page 30

cbearden · 03-20-13, 07:14 PM

Btw, love your house! You've got an impressive setup of panels on back of your house.

Mikesolar · 03-20-13, 07:44 PM

A big part of it is longevity. look at the expansion of the plastic and that of the fin material. Much different. Will it last 20 years? I doubt it but if, like many DIY types, you don't mind taking it apart to fit it, no problem.

Will you get much in the winter, also doubt it but there is not that much energy in the winter compared to summer anyway so you are probably not losing much.

randen · 03-21-13, 08:37 AM

Well Cbearden

IMHO In my cold climate and trying to get every BTU or Calorie out of my panels to heat my home I will take that 15%. The cost of energy will keep rising but my panels must stand the test of time. The copper collectors, stainless steel frames and glass should out-live me all the while producing lots of hot water.

Yes you can use pex and a wood frame and a plastic cover but how long will it last? I couldn't imagine me in my sixties up on a scafold trying to replace a peice of wood that rotted out or a sheet of plastic that is becoming cloudy or God forbid a cracked or burst peice of PEX. With the anti-freeze the stagnation temps could exceed the safe limit of the PEX tubing in a bad condition like a power out on a sunny summer day

I'm already saving a bundle building them myself, materials are no place to compromize. Why not go the extra mile and use the best. Extra insulation, more copper risers, sturdy metal frames and Tempered glass,

Install large copper lines insulated within the homes walls all the way to the utility room. You won't be worried if water/glycol is being pumped thu. the pipes at an elevated temp. that could possibly soften a PEX connection.

If I could only get 15% on my stocks every year.

Drake · 03-26-13, 03:22 PM

Came across this commercial website, Hydronic Radiant Floor Heating Systems, that has some interesting test info on tube in slab construction and offers loop control systems that(I'm not an expert) seem to be different than others that I have looked at. Doesn't detail how they connect to heat source enough for me to fully understand though. Still need expansion tank, mixing valves?

Drake · 03-26-13, 04:15 PM

3-way thermo mixing valve, 4-way, injection mixing? They all seem to be accomplishing the same thing, why so many ways?

randen · 03-26-13, 04:16 PM

Drake
DIY Guy

I have had that staple up system in one bedroom over a garage. It dosen't work. I had water running thru it 180 deg F didn't warm the room. Wouldn't recommend it. Uponor has a system that is placed ontop with a groove that a 5/16 tube is pushed in with about a 4" spacing. This places the warm water right under you toes. This works. However it seams they are trying to have it installed by only contractors they have trained. This would prevent any negative product reveiw from shotty installs. I'm not sure any longer if its avalible to the DIY crowd.

AC hacker had also a source for a similar product. I don't recall the trade name. Maybe we could get him to chime in here.

Randen

Drake · 03-26-13, 04:45 PM

I will be able to and am going the in high mass direction. 4" suspended floor on first floor(full 450 sq' area) and 1" thin slab on front half of second floor(area of passive solar exposure). So the tube in slab info was of interest to me.

randen · 03-26-13, 05:35 PM

I sorry I'm not sure what you mean with a 4" suspended floor. Is that a 4" slab of concrete over a layer of insulation. The 1 " overpour of thin-crete or gyp-crete on the second floor I understand. There are now all sorts of suppliers for the pex tube. Pex supply comes to mind. There are plastic mats that can be stapled down and the 3/8 pex tubing is just snapped in place every 4 to 6" about 200 to250 feet then return to the manifold. Add the poured floor crete, finished. They have all kinds of manifolds pumps tubing fittings and the price seems good. Drake I'm not sure what your using for heat. Heat-pump or somthing burning fossel fuels?? For the 1" overpour a mixing valve will be nessisary to prevent expansion related issuses for the higher temps burning FF. Geo-thermal could be used directly because it is a lower temp anyway.

Most suppliers are selling complete kits one stop shopping. Building everthing like I had done 15 yrs ago is now time wasted. The manifolds can be puchased with zone valves and push to connect fittings built right in.

Randen

AC_Hacker · 03-26-13, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randen

AC hacker had also a source for a similar product. I don't recall the trade name. Maybe we could get him to chime in here.

Randen

The best pre-made top of floor I know of is either Warmboard or Roth Panel. Both are pretty expensive.

Vlad, a thrifty & practical Russian-Canadian did a great top-of-floor system throughout his whole house. Seem to be pretty darn efficient. He has lots of how-to pix, here on EcoRenovator.

I priced out having a poured floor company come in and do my floors with Gypcrete. I decided I could buy the Warmboard or Roth Panel for about the same price and put it in myself.

If you're going to do a poured floor yourself, it's really inexpensive, and efficient.

1.5" concrete is about 17 pounds per foot square, Gypcrete is about 13 pounds per square foot.

I don't think my 120 year old house is up to the load, that's why I'm 'warming up' to a built-up top of floor system.

-AC

Mikesolar · 03-26-13, 08:55 PM

That "warmmfloor" company has some big mistakes in the picture alone. One is that the plates are spaced way too far apart to be effective, you need 2 runs per joist space to be effective, in most places a water heater is not legal for use as a heating source alone (without also doing domestic hot water) as it doesn't have any safety controls when used as a boiler.

Gypcrete is, IMO, far and away the best topping to be placed on a wood floor. It accepts bouncing without cracking and can be feathered down to 1/8" in places. It is worth the $2-4/ft2 (highly dependent on installed square footage due to minimum set up of equipment). You should strive for 1.5" or more of thermal mass which can include the thinset and tile thickness.

And, for 1/2" tubes (which is the standard) max lengths of 250' and as tight a spacing as possible. I have arguments with others about placing manifolds in the basement for all floors. I hate it for air extraction reasons but some like it because it can be cheaper to install (marginally). To me, a manifold should be placed on each floor.

03-21-13, 08:37 AM	#293
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	Well Cbearden IMHO In my cold climate and trying to get every BTU or Calorie out of my panels to heat my home I will take that 15%. The cost of energy will keep rising but my panels must stand the test of time. The copper collectors, stainless steel frames and glass should out-live me all the while producing lots of hot water. Yes you can use pex and a wood frame and a plastic cover but how long will it last? I couldn't imagine me in my sixties up on a scafold trying to replace a peice of wood that rotted out or a sheet of plastic that is becoming cloudy or God forbid a cracked or burst peice of PEX. With the anti-freeze the stagnation temps could exceed the safe limit of the PEX tubing in a bad condition like a power out on a sunny summer day I'm already saving a bundle building them myself, materials are no place to compromize. Why not go the extra mile and use the best. Extra insulation, more copper risers, sturdy metal frames and Tempered glass, Install large copper lines insulated within the homes walls all the way to the utility room. You won't be worried if water/glycol is being pumped thu. the pipes at an elevated temp. that could possibly soften a PEX connection. If I could only get 15% on my stocks every year. Last edited by randen; 03-21-13 at 08:51 AM.. Reason: grammer

03-20-13, 07:14 PM	#291
cbearden Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: AR Posts: 39 Thanks: 11 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Btw, love your house! You've got an impressive setup of panels on back of your house.

03-20-13, 07:44 PM	#292
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	A big part of it is longevity. look at the expansion of the plastic and that of the fin material. Much different. Will it last 20 years? I doubt it but if, like many DIY types, you don't mind taking it apart to fit it, no problem. Will you get much in the winter, also doubt it but there is not that much energy in the winter compared to summer anyway so you are probably not losing much.

03-26-13, 03:22 PM	#294
Drake DIY Guy Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Mpls,MN Posts: 315 Thanks: 2 Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts	Came across this commercial website, Hydronic Radiant Floor Heating Systems, that has some interesting test info on tube in slab construction and offers loop control systems that(I'm not an expert) seem to be different than others that I have looked at. Doesn't detail how they connect to heat source enough for me to fully understand though. Still need expansion tank, mixing valves?

03-26-13, 04:15 PM	#295
Drake DIY Guy Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Mpls,MN Posts: 315 Thanks: 2 Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts	3-way thermo mixing valve, 4-way, injection mixing? They all seem to be accomplishing the same thing, why so many ways?

03-26-13, 04:16 PM	#296
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	Drake DIY Guy I have had that staple up system in one bedroom over a garage. It dosen't work. I had water running thru it 180 deg F didn't warm the room. Wouldn't recommend it. Uponor has a system that is placed ontop with a groove that a 5/16 tube is pushed in with about a 4" spacing. This places the warm water right under you toes. This works. However it seams they are trying to have it installed by only contractors they have trained. This would prevent any negative product reveiw from shotty installs. I'm not sure any longer if its avalible to the DIY crowd. AC hacker had also a source for a similar product. I don't recall the trade name. Maybe we could get him to chime in here. Randen

03-26-13, 04:45 PM	#297
Drake DIY Guy Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Mpls,MN Posts: 315 Thanks: 2 Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts	I will be able to and am going the in high mass direction. 4" suspended floor on first floor(full 450 sq' area) and 1" thin slab on front half of second floor(area of passive solar exposure). So the tube in slab info was of interest to me.

03-26-13, 05:35 PM	#298
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	I sorry I'm not sure what you mean with a 4" suspended floor. Is that a 4" slab of concrete over a layer of insulation. The 1 " overpour of thin-crete or gyp-crete on the second floor I understand. There are now all sorts of suppliers for the pex tube. Pex supply comes to mind. There are plastic mats that can be stapled down and the 3/8 pex tubing is just snapped in place every 4 to 6" about 200 to250 feet then return to the manifold. Add the poured floor crete, finished. They have all kinds of manifolds pumps tubing fittings and the price seems good. Drake I'm not sure what your using for heat. Heat-pump or somthing burning fossel fuels?? For the 1" overpour a mixing valve will be nessisary to prevent expansion related issuses for the higher temps burning FF. Geo-thermal could be used directly because it is a lower temp anyway. Most suppliers are selling complete kits one stop shopping. Building everthing like I had done 15 yrs ago is now time wasted. The manifolds can be puchased with zone valves and push to connect fittings built right in. Randen

03-26-13, 08:55 PM	#300
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	That "warmmfloor" company has some big mistakes in the picture alone. One is that the plates are spaced way too far apart to be effective, you need 2 runs per joist space to be effective, in most places a water heater is not legal for use as a heating source alone (without also doing domestic hot water) as it doesn't have any safety controls when used as a boiler. Gypcrete is, IMO, far and away the best topping to be placed on a wood floor. It accepts bouncing without cracking and can be feathered down to 1/8" in places. It is worth the $2-4/ft2 (highly dependent on installed square footage due to minimum set up of equipment). You should strive for 1.5" or more of thermal mass which can include the thinset and tile thickness. And, for 1/2" tubes (which is the standard) max lengths of 250' and as tight a spacing as possible. I have arguments with others about placing manifolds in the basement for all floors. I hate it for air extraction reasons but some like it because it can be cheaper to install (marginally). To me, a manifold should be placed on each floor.