I am looking at heating and cooling options.

pinballlooking · 09-20-13, 01:04 PM

I have a 2100 sqft house single floor outside Greenville SC it is about 12 years old. We currently have AC with gas heat. I put in 12.5 kW solar and I am looking at some options to use some elect for heating.

My AC is 4 ton single stage 11 seer about 12 years old not one service call in that time.
My gas heat is 92.6 efficiency they are both Goodman the air handler runs at one speed. Gas heat has run flawless for 12 years.

I have a guy that will put in whatever system I get and let me share in the work he is HVAC certified. He charges me a fair price.

I have 8 acres so geothermal is an option. My neighbor has a small excavator than he will work with me on renting it or give me a good price on digging the horizontal loop.
I have a tractor with a blade and I can cover up the loops so that saves time and money.
My HVAC guy has installed geothermal and will help me install it.

In the cold winter will geothermal keep up with heating or will in need heat strips?

Could I keep my gas heat but use the geothermal air handler?

The other option is a two stage heat pump or an inverter heat pump. Could I keep my gas heat I have now?

I am not really sure what way would be better. I work from home so we use heat and AC 24/7 all year.

I even considered a mini split system but I think my house has to many rooms and we have 2 kids that need conditioned rooms.

Mark

I ended up installing 3 single head mini splits and one duel head unit.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...t-install.html

Daox · 09-20-13, 01:12 PM

A ground source heat pump properly sized should easily be able to take care of all of your heating and cooling needs. There are buildings in much more extreme climates that use ground source heat pumps as their only form of heat.

The main thing will be sizing it correctly, and for that I'l leave it up to the others here because I don't know how to do that.

pinballlooking · 09-20-13, 01:35 PM

I am getting a geothermal quote next week but ball park figures were 25,000, 27,000 and that would be over what I would want to spend.

One option (this one has 30% tax break.)
2 Stage Geothermal Heat Pump 4 Ton Install Package for Closed Loop Horizontal Application
$8,063.51 shipped
2 Stage Geothermal Heat Pump 4 Ton Install Package for Closed Loop Vertical Ap
This would guess this one to be 11-12k installed with my labor and contract help on some of it.

One option or a similar system. 4,352.55 I would guess this one to be 6-7K installed (I would just have it installed. No line set in this price.)
Goodman 4 Ton 17.75 SEER 96% AFUE Hybrid Dual Fuel Air Conditioner
https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodma...ioner/28934.ac
After tax break these are not that far off each other.

Anyone have any suggestions? Anyone with geothermal tell me if they have to use heat strips much in the winter?

Xringer · 09-21-13, 09:42 AM

Since you live in the south, an ASHP might be less costly than a GSHP.
Cost of the hardware for buying a few mini-splits might be a bit higher,
but the install cost can be pretty low for a DIY guy with an HVAC buddy.
The time it takes to do a mini-split install is likely about 1/20th that of a GSHP.
But, if you are doing 90% of the labor, you might not care how long it takes.

I'm using two Sanyo Mini-Splits at my house (heating and cooling),
and they are very cheap to run.

WyrTwister · 09-28-13, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer

Since you live in the south, an ASHP might be less costly than a GSHP.
Cost of the hardware for buying a few mini-splits might be a bit higher,
but the install cost can be pretty low for a DIY guy with an HVAC buddy.
The time it takes to do a mini-split install is likely about 1/20th that of a GSHP.
But, if you are doing 90% of the labor, you might not care how long it takes.

I'm using two Sanyo Mini-Splits at my house (heating and cooling),
and they are very cheap to run.

Multiple mini splits also give you the capability of turning off HVAC in rooms or at times of the day , that HVAC is not needed .

This too can be a cost saving feature .

God bless
Wyr

pinballlooking · 09-23-13, 01:05 PM

Thanks for suggesting mini split units.
I am looking @LG LS090HYV 9,000 BTU 28 SEER Ductless Heat Pump.
https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG/LS0...FZSd4Aod-CYAXg
I could get one 9,000 btu and one 12,000 btu. Does anyone have any experience with LG mini split units?
I have never been around one of these. If you stand in front on one do feel the cold or hot air? Can they be mounted above a bed like in MB?
These are 28 SEER this may be a better way to go than Geothermal.
I could do the installs and just have my HVAC friend hook up the lines and check the charge.

MN Renovator · 09-23-13, 01:39 PM

The heating performance of the LG at LS090HYV is sub-par in my opinion. It's cooling performance numbers for SEER and EER look great and the HSPF rating looks great too but if you decide to use this unit for heating at 17f or below, you'll only get 6500BTUhr out of it at 17f. If you are also looking to heat with it you'll want to find your balance point and decide if its a suitable unit for you. LG doesn't have the highest reputation for reliability on contractor forums like hvac-talk.com

Ratings are found at www.ahridirectory.org, scroll down and choose Variable-Speed Mini-Split and Multi-Split Heat Pumps.

I've personally eyed units like the Fujitsu AOU9RLS2/ASU9RLS2 and the Panasonic CU-XE9PKUA/CS-XE9PKUA if you are going for a 9k unit and heating performance is also important to you. I'm personally in the market for a 12k unit to better cover my nearly 18k load so I'm looking at the 12k versions of those. In Minnesota with my current heat load, they hit their balance point a little below freezing which is also roughly where the cost balance point is too so for me I'd be undersized on heating but factoring in the cost of defrost cycles when it gets too cold, I think they are about right, natural gas is very cheap in my area but when I have my solar system installed, it will help to use electricity at the times its cheaper to run a heat pump versus natural gas.

pinballlooking · 09-23-13, 01:47 PM

Thanks for the links and the info I will check them out.
I really like the Fujitsu AOU9RLS2 but I read if you buy it online they will not warranty it. I have natural gas heat with 92.6 efficiency so if it gets below 30 I will just switch to gas heat. But it would be nice to use some solar when it is warmer. The 4 Ton AC I have is a hog so this could help me out.

MN Renovator · 09-23-13, 02:08 PM

Depending on the heat load of your house which depends on a number of factors including total wall square footage and how well its insulated and air sealed, you might get plenty of heat out of the unit when it is above freezing. Hard to tell, I know my heat load numbers from actual furnace runtimes to know that 10000 BTUhr of heat is about what I need to keep my 2100 sq ft house up to normal room temperature with a 30 degree outdoor temperature but I've got an unusual tall house design and I've improved my air sealing a bunch, still working on it though.

Regarding warranties, usually any system purchased online from most manufacturers will void the warranty, same goes for if you install it yourself. I personally think that the savings of buying it online and installing it myself are worth the loss of warranty coverage. Then again I don't have collision insurance on my car so I think certain risks are worth their reduced cost.

pinballlooking · 09-23-13, 02:24 PM

I have a TED-5000C energy monitor so I should be able to figure out where to best cut off to the gas heat.
I know some companies choose to void their warranty if you buy online I usually choose not to buy from them. My install will be completed and blessed by a HVAC guy so I am ok there.

I just called Panasonic support and if you buy their mini split online and have it installed by a HVAC guy they will warranty the unit.

09-20-13, 01:04 PM	#1
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	I am looking at heating and cooling options. I have a 2100 sqft house single floor outside Greenville SC it is about 12 years old. We currently have AC with gas heat. I put in 12.5 kW solar and I am looking at some options to use some elect for heating. My AC is 4 ton single stage 11 seer about 12 years old not one service call in that time. My gas heat is 92.6 efficiency they are both Goodman the air handler runs at one speed. Gas heat has run flawless for 12 years. I have a guy that will put in whatever system I get and let me share in the work he is HVAC certified. He charges me a fair price. I have 8 acres so geothermal is an option. My neighbor has a small excavator than he will work with me on renting it or give me a good price on digging the horizontal loop. I have a tractor with a blade and I can cover up the loops so that saves time and money. My HVAC guy has installed geothermal and will help me install it. In the cold winter will geothermal keep up with heating or will in need heat strips? Could I keep my gas heat but use the geothermal air handler? The other option is a two stage heat pump or an inverter heat pump. Could I keep my gas heat I have now? I am not really sure what way would be better. I work from home so we use heat and AC 24/7 all year. I even considered a mini split system but I think my house has to many rooms and we have 2 kids that need conditioned rooms. Mark I ended up installing 3 single head mini splits and one duel head unit. http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...t-install.html Last edited by pinballlooking; 04-14-15 at 03:27 PM..

09-20-13, 01:12 PM	#2
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	A ground source heat pump properly sized should easily be able to take care of all of your heating and cooling needs. There are buildings in much more extreme climates that use ground source heat pumps as their only form of heat. The main thing will be sizing it correctly, and for that I'l leave it up to the others here because I don't know how to do that. __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

09-20-13, 01:35 PM	#3
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	I am getting a geothermal quote next week but ball park figures were 25,000, 27,000 and that would be over what I would want to spend. One option (this one has 30% tax break.) 2 Stage Geothermal Heat Pump 4 Ton Install Package for Closed Loop Horizontal Application $8,063.51 shipped 2 Stage Geothermal Heat Pump 4 Ton Install Package for Closed Loop Vertical Ap This would guess this one to be 11-12k installed with my labor and contract help on some of it. One option or a similar system. 4,352.55 I would guess this one to be 6-7K installed (I would just have it installed. No line set in this price.) Goodman 4 Ton 17.75 SEER 96% AFUE Hybrid Dual Fuel Air Conditioner https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodma...ioner/28934.ac After tax break these are not that far off each other. Anyone have any suggestions? Anyone with geothermal tell me if they have to use heat strips much in the winter? Last edited by pinballlooking; 09-20-13 at 11:53 PM..

09-21-13, 09:42 AM	#4
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Since you live in the south, an ASHP might be less costly than a GSHP. Cost of the hardware for buying a few mini-splits might be a bit higher, but the install cost can be pretty low for a DIY guy with an HVAC buddy. The time it takes to do a mini-split install is likely about 1/20th that of a GSHP. But, if you are doing 90% of the labor, you might not care how long it takes. I'm using two Sanyo Mini-Splits at my house (heating and cooling), and they are very cheap to run. __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

09-23-13, 02:08 PM	#9
MN Renovator Less usage=Cheaper bills Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 940 Thanks: 41 Thanked 117 Times in 91 Posts	Depending on the heat load of your house which depends on a number of factors including total wall square footage and how well its insulated and air sealed, you might get plenty of heat out of the unit when it is above freezing. Hard to tell, I know my heat load numbers from actual furnace runtimes to know that 10000 BTUhr of heat is about what I need to keep my 2100 sq ft house up to normal room temperature with a 30 degree outdoor temperature but I've got an unusual tall house design and I've improved my air sealing a bunch, still working on it though. Regarding warranties, usually any system purchased online from most manufacturers will void the warranty, same goes for if you install it yourself. I personally think that the savings of buying it online and installing it myself are worth the loss of warranty coverage. Then again I don't have collision insurance on my car so I think certain risks are worth their reduced cost. Last edited by MN Renovator; 09-23-13 at 02:10 PM..

09-23-13, 01:05 PM	#6
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	Thanks for suggesting mini split units. I am looking @LG LS090HYV 9,000 BTU 28 SEER Ductless Heat Pump. https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG/LS0...FZSd4Aod-CYAXg I could get one 9,000 btu and one 12,000 btu. Does anyone have any experience with LG mini split units? I have never been around one of these. If you stand in front on one do feel the cold or hot air? Can they be mounted above a bed like in MB? These are 28 SEER this may be a better way to go than Geothermal. I could do the installs and just have my HVAC friend hook up the lines and check the charge.

09-23-13, 01:39 PM	#7
MN Renovator Less usage=Cheaper bills Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 940 Thanks: 41 Thanked 117 Times in 91 Posts	The heating performance of the LG at LS090HYV is sub-par in my opinion. It's cooling performance numbers for SEER and EER look great and the HSPF rating looks great too but if you decide to use this unit for heating at 17f or below, you'll only get 6500BTUhr out of it at 17f. If you are also looking to heat with it you'll want to find your balance point and decide if its a suitable unit for you. LG doesn't have the highest reputation for reliability on contractor forums like hvac-talk.com Ratings are found at www.ahridirectory.org, scroll down and choose Variable-Speed Mini-Split and Multi-Split Heat Pumps. I've personally eyed units like the Fujitsu AOU9RLS2/ASU9RLS2 and the Panasonic CU-XE9PKUA/CS-XE9PKUA if you are going for a 9k unit and heating performance is also important to you. I'm personally in the market for a 12k unit to better cover my nearly 18k load so I'm looking at the 12k versions of those. In Minnesota with my current heat load, they hit their balance point a little below freezing which is also roughly where the cost balance point is too so for me I'd be undersized on heating but factoring in the cost of defrost cycles when it gets too cold, I think they are about right, natural gas is very cheap in my area but when I have my solar system installed, it will help to use electricity at the times its cheaper to run a heat pump versus natural gas.

09-23-13, 01:47 PM	#8
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	Thanks for the links and the info I will check them out. I really like the Fujitsu AOU9RLS2 but I read if you buy it online they will not warranty it. I have natural gas heat with 92.6 efficiency so if it gets below 30 I will just switch to gas heat. But it would be nice to use some solar when it is warmer. The 4 Ton AC I have is a hog so this could help me out.

09-23-13, 02:24 PM	#10
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	I have a TED-5000C energy monitor so I should be able to figure out where to best cut off to the gas heat. I know some companies choose to void their warranty if you buy online I usually choose not to buy from them. My install will be completed and blessed by a HVAC guy so I am ok there. I just called Panasonic support and if you buy their mini split online and have it installed by a HVAC guy they will warranty the unit. Last edited by pinballlooking; 09-23-13 at 08:37 PM..

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