WSHP: Supply well and return well spacing? - Page 2

Geo NR Gee · 02-26-17, 01:45 PM

We experienced the same thing without running out of fuel and just left the drill stem and cutter in the ground. Moved over like you said and kept on drilling. Ours was a small engine toy rig and just wouldn't spin anymore. Just like it was cemented solid. We were only down probably 30 feet or so.

jeff5may · 02-27-17, 06:41 AM

I would feel much more confident using the 3 inch pipe than the 1-1/2". Much beefier. Plus, it's a bigger hole to draw water from. Don't spend much longer trying to extract the stuck string. Spend your time drilling a new, larger diameter hole.

slippy · 02-27-17, 07:28 AM

That's probably solid advice. I'm thinking if we were to attempt to simply go OVER the 1-1/2" hole coaxially, it ought to be fairly easy drilling.

Now, I made a really nice well screen about 22' long that I'd like to use. It is 1.5", though.

We'll get back at it today in one fashion or the other. I reckon a quick attempt to get the rescue pipe all the way to the bottom (I left it only about 2' away before withdrawing it Friday) is in order first, as well as "giving it all we've got" with my chain hoist. I've avoided pulling terribly hard, as I've feared it breaking off deep. But, if we're just going to punt anyway, I might as well tug until it frees or breaks.

slippy · 02-27-17, 07:29 AM

Oh, sorry, another thing: I did take some pictures; is there a "standard" way to upload them here, or should I post them at imgur and link to them?

jeff5may · 02-27-17, 07:39 AM

Look here:
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/forum-...-pictures.html

slippy · 02-28-17, 08:32 PM

I wish I was less busy to afford more picture-taking, but I have taken some.

A quick update: we extracted the stuck drill pipe (HOORAY!) and placed the well pipe. Well screen is about 22' long, inserted at a total depth of about 40'. It could have gone in deeper, but I feel that would have been risky or a waste, due to the silty clay we were in at that depth.

We packed the void with an astonishing 19 bags of pea gravel. I can't believe it took so much! Even at that, we were 9' below grade. We capped that with 2 bags of Quickrete, followed by a large bag of Oil-Dri (largely bentonite), followed by cement (94 lb. of soupy-mixed straight Portland cement).

I don't want to develop the well until the cement has set, for risk of breaking the seal. Strangely, I've been unable to find any data online as to how long it takes for straight cement to set up. You can find cure strengths for 7 to 28 days, and the like, but nothing to say "yeah, you can wiggle a set pipe safely."

Hopefully in the morning, I'll be able to figure out a bit more as to what the well will produce. It'll be what it'll be...

Geo NR Gee · 03-03-17, 10:02 PM

Any updates on the progress?

slippy · 03-04-17, 08:59 AM

Unfortunately, yes.

So, cement set up overnight. We tried pumping from the well with the 2" trash pump, which didn't really work so well. Tough to prime, but we DID pull some water out. The flow slowed, which I attributed to sediment clogging the screen. We reversed water direction, and a small stream of water was coming out the top of the well, around the cement seal! So, apparently, the seal just wasn't up to par, though I sure thought we did a good job. While we were messing with this, we discovered the ground hissing like an air leak, from the wall of the hole we began to dig around the cement.

Perhaps the well wasn't pumping, because we were drawing air in. I suspect the top of our very long (22-23') well screen to be maybe a foot above the water table, but still about 18' down.

(Insert in the middle of all this some days spent at the hospital for an unrelated family emergency.)

So, we dug all around the cement, and noticed exposed pipe at the bottom of it; the cement hadn't flowed or amalgamated with everything as I'd have thought. This cement "plug" was about 3' tall, and 18" in diameter.

We have now excavated down a total of 6.5' around the well pipe. We have not been able to reach the 2 bags of Quickrete that are somewhere below (that I am shocked didn't seal this in the first place.) They were poured when the pea gravel was measuring 9' from the surface. Assuming it set before it could have somehow "sank" (settling of sediment/pea gravel, which I wouldn't have thought possible), then we have got to be close to reaching it from the top now (6.5 feet + 2 bags of quick concrete has GOT to be close to 9 feet, considering our 1.5" drill pipe cutting a, maybe, 4" bore).

I'm open to ideas right now, as far as ways to help ensure a good seal. I essentially have a 3' x 3' x 6' pit we've dug, which would be a LOT of cement to mix. I could pour the floor of it, then perhaps put a cylindrical form around the well pipe and pour a 6' tall, 1' diameter cylinder, then replace all the dirt. I thought about sucking on the pipe while pouring a cement slurry in the hole to perhaps draw it into any voids or air leaks or water passages.

Really, I'm not sure just WHAT to do. And, yes, I WILL get around to posting some pictures!

slippy · 03-04-17, 09:18 AM

Oh, and to add to the frustration, I'm not sure what to do about the well pumo I bought. It is a Myers HJ50-D (specifications PDF) (manual PDF).

It is a 2-pipe jet pump that didn't come with the jet/venturi/ejector/packer end. I bought a similar ejector, but it wouldn't bolt directly to the pump, as the holes, while the same dimensions, are offset a bit. Well, I was going to take care of that with two 1-1/4" male adapters, two 1" male adapters, then equal-length sections of 1-1/4" and 1" pipe (which would have allowed me to connect the two, separated by about a foot), but the damn holes on the ejector are too close to be able to install the male adapters side-by-side! So, I'll need to use barbed fittings (ugh) or some other method to connect.

Similarly, since my water level is about 20' subsurface, I'm also wondering if I should take advantage of my new 6' deep hole, and install the ejector down into the pit, which would increase pump efficiency. If I were to do that, though, either I'd encase all that in cement, or have to reduce the height of the seal.

This has been one hell of a frustrating experience thus far, and far more time-consuming than I'd have envisioned. It has been a hell of a learning experience, too, but... jeesh! I'm ready to be done, and to see how much water I can draw so I can then get to work designing or buying a heat pump. Even at that, I'm not sure how to determine how much I can get out... I guess pump until the well runs dry (if it does) while measuring flow rate, and see how long it takes to draw down, then limit the flow rate with a valve, to try to find the equilibrium point???

Then, there's the figuring out what to do about a well house, and its associated plumbing. Ugh.

slippy · 03-04-17, 10:18 AM

Drill pipe, drill bit, etc. Keeping hose water running while pipe is out to help reinsertion and prevention of collapse and sticking

Drill bit close-up. DO NOT USE A CAST BUSHING, OR CAST ANYTHING, AS YOUR BIT! It'll break. We had a 1-1/2" to 2" bushing at the bottom of this pipe nipple, with teeth cut in it, and most of those teeth are now somewhere down the hole. The metal must be somewhat malleable, like regular pipe.

5.5hp, 2" pump purchased off Craigslist for $200. Does a fine job, but the more water, the merrier.

Settling pit. Note the bucket with many holes drilled near the top. This worked pretty well, but a deeper, more volumetric pit would have been better.

Settling pit in action. Note sandy-looking clay in the background, scooped out with the shovel

I never really saw it discussed anywhere, but something like THIS is a great way to keep water where you want it. Doing it all over, I'd have kept driving the 4" sewer pipe deeper and deeper into the ground; we started with a 2' stub, but the hole enlarged more than that immediately below it. The deeper this temporary casing goes, the more protected everything is from collapse, AND the easier the cuttings can bubble up. I think that a large cavern was created somewhere down in the hole, which contributed to my failed sealing attempt.

Lots to see here. This is the drill head. We simply twisted and drove it down, not using movable handles. Care must be taken to not over-torque the coupling. The drill pipe is stuck in this picture, so we are using 3/4" PVC to drill down to the bottom to liquefy the soil to aid in extraction. Note the yellow straps on the drill pipe, going to a chain hoist attached to a ladder.

Another shot of the chain hoist and extraction effort.

Just a picture of the pump I'm intending to use as the well pump.

Excavating around the leaking seal

Pipe cut below cement plug, and extracted. We continued to dig about another 3 feet below this point.

03-04-17, 10:18 AM	#20
slippy Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Charlotte NC USA Posts: 37 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Pictures! Drill pipe, drill bit, etc. Keeping hose water running while pipe is out to help reinsertion and prevention of collapse and sticking Drill bit close-up. DO NOT USE A CAST BUSHING, OR CAST ANYTHING, AS YOUR BIT! It'll break. We had a 1-1/2" to 2" bushing at the bottom of this pipe nipple, with teeth cut in it, and most of those teeth are now somewhere down the hole. The metal must be somewhat malleable, like regular pipe. 5.5hp, 2" pump purchased off Craigslist for $200. Does a fine job, but the more water, the merrier. Settling pit. Note the bucket with many holes drilled near the top. This worked pretty well, but a deeper, more volumetric pit would have been better. Settling pit in action. Note sandy-looking clay in the background, scooped out with the shovel I never really saw it discussed anywhere, but something like THIS is a great way to keep water where you want it. Doing it all over, I'd have kept driving the 4" sewer pipe deeper and deeper into the ground; we started with a 2' stub, but the hole enlarged more than that immediately below it. The deeper this temporary casing goes, the more protected everything is from collapse, AND the easier the cuttings can bubble up. I think that a large cavern was created somewhere down in the hole, which contributed to my failed sealing attempt. Lots to see here. This is the drill head. We simply twisted and drove it down, not using movable handles. Care must be taken to not over-torque the coupling. The drill pipe is stuck in this picture, so we are using 3/4" PVC to drill down to the bottom to liquefy the soil to aid in extraction. Note the yellow straps on the drill pipe, going to a chain hoist attached to a ladder. Another shot of the chain hoist and extraction effort. Just a picture of the pump I'm intending to use as the well pump. Excavating around the leaking seal Pipe cut below cement plug, and extracted. We continued to dig about another 3 feet below this point.

02-26-17, 01:45 PM	#11
Geo NR Gee Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Seattle Posts: 326 Thanks: 109 Thanked 23 Times in 18 Posts	We experienced the same thing without running out of fuel and just left the drill stem and cutter in the ground. Moved over like you said and kept on drilling. Ours was a small engine toy rig and just wouldn't spin anymore. Just like it was cemented solid. We were only down probably 30 feet or so.

02-27-17, 06:41 AM	#12
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,428 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	I would feel much more confident using the 3 inch pipe than the 1-1/2". Much beefier. Plus, it's a bigger hole to draw water from. Don't spend much longer trying to extract the stuck string. Spend your time drilling a new, larger diameter hole.

02-27-17, 07:28 AM	#13
slippy Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Charlotte NC USA Posts: 37 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	That's probably solid advice. I'm thinking if we were to attempt to simply go OVER the 1-1/2" hole coaxially, it ought to be fairly easy drilling. Now, I made a really nice well screen about 22' long that I'd like to use. It is 1.5", though. We'll get back at it today in one fashion or the other. I reckon a quick attempt to get the rescue pipe all the way to the bottom (I left it only about 2' away before withdrawing it Friday) is in order first, as well as "giving it all we've got" with my chain hoist. I've avoided pulling terribly hard, as I've feared it breaking off deep. But, if we're just going to punt anyway, I might as well tug until it frees or breaks.

02-27-17, 07:29 AM	#14
slippy Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Charlotte NC USA Posts: 37 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Oh, sorry, another thing: I did take some pictures; is there a "standard" way to upload them here, or should I post them at imgur and link to them?

02-27-17, 07:39 AM	#15
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,428 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	Look here: http://ecorenovator.org/forum/forum-...-pictures.html

02-28-17, 08:32 PM	#16
slippy Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Charlotte NC USA Posts: 37 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I wish I was less busy to afford more picture-taking, but I have taken some. A quick update: we extracted the stuck drill pipe (HOORAY!) and placed the well pipe. Well screen is about 22' long, inserted at a total depth of about 40'. It could have gone in deeper, but I feel that would have been risky or a waste, due to the silty clay we were in at that depth. We packed the void with an astonishing 19 bags of pea gravel. I can't believe it took so much! Even at that, we were 9' below grade. We capped that with 2 bags of Quickrete, followed by a large bag of Oil-Dri (largely bentonite), followed by cement (94 lb. of soupy-mixed straight Portland cement). I don't want to develop the well until the cement has set, for risk of breaking the seal. Strangely, I've been unable to find any data online as to how long it takes for straight cement to set up. You can find cure strengths for 7 to 28 days, and the like, but nothing to say "yeah, you can wiggle a set pipe safely." Hopefully in the morning, I'll be able to figure out a bit more as to what the well will produce. It'll be what it'll be...

03-03-17, 10:02 PM	#17
Geo NR Gee Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Seattle Posts: 326 Thanks: 109 Thanked 23 Times in 18 Posts	Any updates on the progress?

03-04-17, 08:59 AM	#18
slippy Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Charlotte NC USA Posts: 37 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Unfortunately, yes. So, cement set up overnight. We tried pumping from the well with the 2" trash pump, which didn't really work so well. Tough to prime, but we DID pull some water out. The flow slowed, which I attributed to sediment clogging the screen. We reversed water direction, and a small stream of water was coming out the top of the well, around the cement seal! So, apparently, the seal just wasn't up to par, though I sure thought we did a good job. While we were messing with this, we discovered the ground hissing like an air leak, from the wall of the hole we began to dig around the cement. Perhaps the well wasn't pumping, because we were drawing air in. I suspect the top of our very long (22-23') well screen to be maybe a foot above the water table, but still about 18' down. (Insert in the middle of all this some days spent at the hospital for an unrelated family emergency.) So, we dug all around the cement, and noticed exposed pipe at the bottom of it; the cement hadn't flowed or amalgamated with everything as I'd have thought. This cement "plug" was about 3' tall, and 18" in diameter. We have now excavated down a total of 6.5' around the well pipe. We have not been able to reach the 2 bags of Quickrete that are somewhere below (that I am shocked didn't seal this in the first place.) They were poured when the pea gravel was measuring 9' from the surface. Assuming it set before it could have somehow "sank" (settling of sediment/pea gravel, which I wouldn't have thought possible), then we have got to be close to reaching it from the top now (6.5 feet + 2 bags of quick concrete has GOT to be close to 9 feet, considering our 1.5" drill pipe cutting a, maybe, 4" bore). I'm open to ideas right now, as far as ways to help ensure a good seal. I essentially have a 3' x 3' x 6' pit we've dug, which would be a LOT of cement to mix. I could pour the floor of it, then perhaps put a cylindrical form around the well pipe and pour a 6' tall, 1' diameter cylinder, then replace all the dirt. I thought about sucking on the pipe while pouring a cement slurry in the hole to perhaps draw it into any voids or air leaks or water passages. Really, I'm not sure just WHAT to do. And, yes, I WILL get around to posting some pictures!

03-04-17, 09:18 AM	#19
slippy Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Charlotte NC USA Posts: 37 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Oh, and to add to the frustration, I'm not sure what to do about the well pumo I bought. It is a Myers HJ50-D (specifications PDF) (manual PDF). It is a 2-pipe jet pump that didn't come with the jet/venturi/ejector/packer end. I bought a similar ejector, but it wouldn't bolt directly to the pump, as the holes, while the same dimensions, are offset a bit. Well, I was going to take care of that with two 1-1/4" male adapters, two 1" male adapters, then equal-length sections of 1-1/4" and 1" pipe (which would have allowed me to connect the two, separated by about a foot), but the damn holes on the ejector are too close to be able to install the male adapters side-by-side! So, I'll need to use barbed fittings (ugh) or some other method to connect. Similarly, since my water level is about 20' subsurface, I'm also wondering if I should take advantage of my new 6' deep hole, and install the ejector down into the pit, which would increase pump efficiency. If I were to do that, though, either I'd encase all that in cement, or have to reduce the height of the seal. This has been one hell of a frustrating experience thus far, and far more time-consuming than I'd have envisioned. It has been a hell of a learning experience, too, but... jeesh! I'm ready to be done, and to see how much water I can draw so I can then get to work designing or buying a heat pump. Even at that, I'm not sure how to determine how much I can get out... I guess pump until the well runs dry (if it does) while measuring flow rate, and see how long it takes to draw down, then limit the flow rate with a valve, to try to find the equilibrium point??? Then, there's the figuring out what to do about a well house, and its associated plumbing. Ugh.