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Old 01-01-12, 10:50 AM   #21
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That's not a bad idea to remove the waste heat. Now I know I'm not talking about diesel but if you could seal the exhaust and run the exhaust pipe outside and use a quiet generator indoors like a Honda 2000 watt inverter generator, which is quieter than a refrigerator at under 1000 watts, you'd have your heat outside and have a small fuel efficient generator inside. Those run off of propane too but I wouldn't want those fittings in my house. Then again people I've asked people who use them more than I have say that 1 gallon puts out about 5kw as long as it has enough load for idle speed or to where it raises itself slightly off idle.

So todays gasoline price at $3.199/gallon where I am so 5kwh per gallon is 64 cents/kwh. I don't think diesel is going to be too much cheaper to run, at least its not going to cut the numbers in half. My current generator, a 3kw Harbor Freight fixed speed direct alternator type(non-inverter) that I got for $240. It's probably a buck per kwh but I got it for power outages and for when I need to run large power tools that the inverter generators seem to hate(variable speed inductive loads don't get along well with most inverters) and it rarely gets used so I figure over the next ten years it will probably get an average of a gallon a year run through it.

I've put thought into generators though for solar off-grid applications because there will be times that there is either a need for a higher load or a need to compensate for less winter sun which likely come together when its time to heat the house when solar heat isn't around to keep the house warm or the batteries charged. I'd imagine propane would be more expensive than gasoline to run but probably much easier considering the house is likely heated with it in a remote location.

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Old 01-02-12, 09:12 AM   #22
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I came to the belief a couple of years ago that microcogeneration is the future of power production in this country. With the construction of individual systems serving homes and businesses, there is no need for the construction of centralized (and inefficient) power plants.

I found a company in Wisconsin that manufactures a unit called Ecopower. It is a decendant of the natural gas powered air conditioners (Triathlon) in the 1980s.

I have been stumping for EcoPower at trade shows and other speaking opportunities. The syllabus is below.

The challenge is cost. The EcoPower folks believe they can bring the sales price down by 50% with a sufficient increase in volume.



Natural Gas in the Green Economy

Barry C. Westbrook
President, DocAir, LLC

What is the role of natural gas in the green economy?
The "green" movement has typically focused on the production of clean electrical power. How clean is natural gas and where does it fit? Consider these facts:
• The number of natural gas reserves have increased significantly over the past several years.
• Natural gas has an extensive pipeline distribution infrastructure already in place to supply fuel to our homes and businesses.
• Converting from petroleum to natural gas reduces our dependence on foreign suppliers of oil.
It is clear that we need to move toward an integrated gas/electric strategy if we want to maintain our standard of living and create a truly sustainable economy. This seminar will consider the environmental, social, and economic aspects of natural gas with the emphasis on domestic micro cogeneration.
Seminar Outline and Syllabus (90 Minutes)
I. The number of known natural gas reserves has expanded exponentially
o America has enough natural gas reserves to sustain and grow our economy for many decades.
o Technology evolution: solid fuel, liquid fuel, gas fuels
o The future of coal gasification
o Geothermal to gas
I. Extensive distribution infrastructure already is already in place throughout the United States
II. The convergence/integration of gas and electricity in a sustainable economy
III. The limitations of solar power
a. The uncertainty of subsidies
b. The economics are questionable
c. Energy cost of manufacture versus energy generated
II. We can generate electricity on site more efficiently and with 50% of the carbon dioxide creation of central power generation plants using coal.
III. CNG-fueled Automobiles
o Our vehicles can be easily converted to CNG or hybrid CNG/electric
o With a similar level of government subsidy used to promote solar technologies, we can convert our automobiles to compressed natural gas (CNG).
o Provide energy independence from hostile oil producing countries.
IV. The existing gas distribution infrastructure will allow us to gasify and transport other energy resources such as coal, shale, and biomass.
V. The use of natural gas as a fundamental fuel in both winter and summer will smooth out the seasonal price fluctuations and make it a less risky energy option.
VI. Cogeneration deployment avoids the need to build large regional power plants
o Peak demand shaving
o Conservation
o Power Factor Correction
VII. On site, micro-cogeneration allows us to use combustion heat that would otherwise be exhausted to the atmosphere. We can heat our buildings, water, greenhouses, and even power absorption chillers for cooling.
o Micro cogeneration system by Marathon Engine (EcoPower)
o Class demonstration of technology and economics
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Old 01-04-12, 05:28 PM   #23
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Hi,
Everybody have brought up some good points and ideas. It is great to discuss this.

DocAir: you have a great presentation and bring up some good points about the benefits of co generation. When I read the news they say we are having trouble switching to a renewable energy system because our electrical network is so outdated and not compatible with the renewable energy sources like wind.

So, if everybody used a cogeneration unit we would shift the energy demand from our electrical network to our gas pipeline networks and free up our electrical network for renewable energy. From what I understand numerous Japanese homes use a co generator for this reason. And it would be great if you are "off grid".

The other side to the argument is the problem with decentralizing. Our cars for example: The government says most cars are not properly maintained, so they waste fuel and cause pollution. Could the same thing be said about co generators? Also there is a big push to use electric vehicles which rely on a centralized generation system. The idea is that it is easier to maintain one large power plant than to have many improperly maintained power plants.

I am not saying everybody would fail to maintain their cogenerator, but just like our cars, a lot of them will become wasteful and polluting. Don't get me wrong, I think there are numerous benefits to decentralized energy, but I guess I am a green capitalist, meaning that it has to be cost effective.

Right now with our current fuel prices a co generator isn't cost effective. Even if the equipement came way down in price, the cost of operating a cogenerator is still a lot higher than what we currently have.

To me co generators are great in principle, I wish my current boiler (without using more fuel) produced free electricity too; however, it doesn't. And to change to a system that does just doesn't pencil out, yet.

Perhaps the problem is scale and marketing of the cogenerators. The producers need to prove that there is a benefit to purchasing their machines.

I have an idea I wanted to throw out there. Since co generators are sized and primarily used as a heat source: what about hooking up a heat pump to cool the motor down and provide even more heat to the home? This would cut it's fuel use down and still heat the house. The cogenerator wouldn't have to produce so many BTUs since the heat pump would increase the heat.

Co generators are very iteresting, and I hope in the future they may become more appealing, but for now I am still not sold.
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Old 04-17-12, 12:13 PM   #24
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Hi,
Now is a great time for renewable energy, things are very dynamic. I was reading about how the price of natural gas is set to drop to 20 year lows.
I mention this because a cheap fuel source could be a game changer for Micro co generation.

Some other information I found was also interesting. Concentrated Solar Power (CSP)
These systems produce heat and electricity for free, since the fuel source is solar. Combining one of these systems with a conventional micro co generator would cut the amount of petroleum fuel needed. The internal combustion motor would only have to work at night and during inclement weather. And if the IC motor operated on Natural Gas, the micro co generator may be able to compete with grid electricity.

The solar generator is designed to produce electricity which can be used directly in a house or sold to the grid. The solar generator produces steam; the steam could go through a heat exchanger and heat domestic hot water. The steam would come out of the HX as a cool liquid which makes the process more efficient. The DHW tank could be connected to a radiant floor system to heat the house.

Doc Air have you researched using renewable energy as a "hybrid" system of micro cogeneration? Does anybody else have information on this kind of idea? It would take a lot of equipment to build, so the initial cost would be high, payback can only come from savings. Of course where you live would play a part, as to, how much solar energy is available, and what you currently pay for electricity.

The solar side still has the renewable energy's Achilles heel, it can't store energy for long (months) periods of time. The only reliable energy stored is in the NG petroleum fuel. That’s why the conventional system would still be needed.

Of course this is all theory, and brainstorming at this point. I look forward to input from others.
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Old 04-17-12, 08:21 PM   #25
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The problem with NG of course is the fact that fracking is being done irresponsibly.
The other problem is that it is not all that clean a fuel. There is considerable particulate discharge from the exhaust, the particles are smaller so invisible to the eye, however just as harmful as gasoline powered IC's.
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Old 04-18-12, 11:44 AM   #26
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Hi,
Yeah, fracking really can make a mess. What frustrates me is that we finally found an inexpensive energy source that should bring manufacturing jobs back, and alleviate the high energy prices we currently pay. Instead they want to build LNG terminals to export the valuable resource. If we want NG in the U.S. we will have to bid on it against other countries, which will only drive the price up. Mean while, we have to live with the problems fracking causes. We get sold out again.

Politics aside: I have always heard that NG was a very clean fuel source. Then again, it might be relative to how dirty the other sources are.

I consider websites like this to be a valuable resource, the sharing of information, DIY low budget solutions and general brainstorming is truly a valuable asset.
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Old 04-18-12, 12:14 PM   #27
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I think as far as compressed gasses go that propane is supposed to be the cleanest. It's MUCH more expensive than NG though, and of course also needs delivery or a tank small enough to be portable to be able to fill it from a station. If your goal is cheap electricity and heating done at the same time, you might be able to reach that goal if you do it right. The environmental aspect, I can't comment on as I don't have information to back anything up. I'd imagine if you were heating your house and your water with natural gas anyway that this might still be cleaner due to the dual source nature but it might be hard to figure. If all you've got running is your refrigerator intermittently at night, you'd better be pumping the excess energy capacity into batteries or you've got an extremely inefficient system. It all needs to be planned and executed carefully.

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Old 04-21-12, 09:05 AM   #28
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They apparently have had to stop fracking in PA -- because of the drought. I'm amazed that this also isn't a problem in Texas. Fracking uses a LOT of water.
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Old 11-08-12, 12:24 PM   #29
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The ecoPOWER 1.0 micro-cogeneration system is Germany’s most sustainable product: world.honda.com/news/2011/p111108ecoPOWER-1.0/index.html

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