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Old 04-12-14, 02:12 PM   #21
buffalobillpatrick
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Old 04-12-14, 02:25 PM   #22
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Old 04-12-14, 04:08 PM   #23
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So you actually don't really need 50 gallons at 140F, just ~100 gallons around 100F or less. Maybe just use a heat exchanger for that as a "tankless" water heater. That fixes the bacteria growth issue and reduces the temperature requirement, increasing efficiency.
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Old 04-13-14, 01:52 PM   #24
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Old 04-13-14, 02:29 PM   #25
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Unless you already bought the tanks, just one (in addition to the solar tank) should do. Pump 2 in your diagram would be unnecessary since the boiler can just be turned off when not in use.

I also don't see how the heat pump can supply DHW. Even at the 120-130F range, a heat pump can be efficient enough to be worth using, especially during warmer weather.
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Old 04-13-14, 02:59 PM   #26
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Modes of operation:

1. If Solar > 150*F, Solar heats 120 G. Thermal Accumulator/DHW tank.
Solar -> P3, HX -> Solar, HX & P4 -> Thermal Accumulator/DHW tank (120*F),
under control of thermo sensors & Aquastst

2. Boiler heats Thermal Accumulator/DHW tank.
Boiler -> P1, HX, -> boiler, HX & P4 -> Thermal Accumulator/DHW tank (120*F),
under control of Aquastst.

3. Winter, HP uses Solar input (35*-> 90*F) to heat 40 G tank to 100*F.
Solar -> 90*F TMV, P5, HP, P6 -> 40 G tank.
under control of thermo sensors + Microcontroller

4. Winter, 40 G tank provides heat to Radiant floors.
40 G tank -> ODR TMV, P7 -> Radiant floor -> both 3-Way valves energized,
-> 40 G tank.
under control of thermo sensors + Microcontroller + Zone Valve end switches

5. Winter, If Solar > 90*F heats Radiant floors directly (not via HP)
Solar -> ODR TMV, P7 -> Radiant floor -> energized 3-Way valve on right -> Solar
under control of thermo sensors + Microcontroller + Zone Valve end switches

6. Winter, Thermal Accumulator heats Radiant floors.
Thermal Accumulator -> P4 -> HX -> Thermal Accumulator,
Note: heat flows out of Thermal Accumulator in reverse direction through HX
P2 picks up heat from HX
via close T's -> ODR TMV, P7 -> Radiant floor ->both 3-Way valves normal, -> close T
under control of thermo sensors + Microcontroller + Zone Valve end switches

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Old 04-13-14, 03:07 PM   #27
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I already have unused 40 G Hot Water Tank, 8-yr cheapo Lowe's porcelain lined.

Keeping it at 90-100*F will increase HP Eff. (which is why I started this thread)

I have everything on hand except P6, which could be a low heat pump like Taco 006.

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Old 04-13-14, 04:54 PM   #28
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One valve selects whether the boiler/DHW loop is interconnected or isolated. Another selects whether the solar goes through the heat pump or is directly used.

The thermal storage tank can go above the 90F or so point when using direct solar. The heat pump will not be used until it goes below the temperature you planned. The DHW tank acts as thermal mass for the boiler so there's no need to have the boiler heat the storage tank.

If the heat pump has a desuperheater, that goes between the DHW side pump and the heat exchanger.

Also note that where possible, the pumps were kept out of the high temperature (>100F or so) parts where possible. That would help them last longer.
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Old 04-13-14, 07:52 PM   #29
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Thanks NiHaoMike, I like lots of it!

Let's call the pumps P1 - P6 from upper left to lower right.

The Burnham RV3 boiler requires P1 to be on it's output, due to it's internal P/S loop & variable speed internal pump setup This is called pumping away & allows the Air seperator & Expansion tank below it to function properly.

"One valve selects whether the boiler/DHW loop is interconnected or isolated"
that would be the top 3-way valve (#1).

"Another selects whether the solar goes through the heat pump or is directly used"
that would be the 2-way valve (#2) just lower left of #1

I don't see path for Solar to heat 120G tank?

I don't see path for 120G tank to heat Radiant floors without going back through the Solar HX OR through HP condenser -> P4 & back through unfired boiler, which is not good practice as heat would be lost up vent pipe to outdoors?

Same comment on HP heating 120G tank "back through unfired boiler, which is not good practice as heat would be lost up vent pipe to outdoors"

"The thermal storage tank can go above the 90F or so point when using direct solar"
Is that the 40G tank?

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Old 04-13-14, 08:52 PM   #30
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Then move the first pump to the outlet of the boiler.

The path for solar directly heating the DHW tank is running the boiler pump (but not the boiler itself) and the direct solar pump with the direct solar valve open and the three way valve set to send the flow through the storage tank back to the direct solar pump.

The heat loss from the boiler should be minimal when the inducer isn't running, but you can also add another pump (as you did in your drawing) to bypass it altogether.

The 40 gallon thermal storage tank can in fact go above the usual setpoint when heated by solar. That won't reduce the heat pump efficiency since the heat pump won't be used until the tank goes back below the 90F or whatever point.

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