#2 Sanyo 24KHS72 AC/HP Install Project (Oct 2011)

[Xringer]

It's costing us some serious bucks to heat the Den (& the house) this winter.
Sanyo#2 has been running the same hours as Sanyo#1 in the LR.
It's been getting a little colder each week (but it's still warmer than last year).

We have been using the Den every day and have kept the temperature setting
the same as the house. 21C during the day and 19 or 20 at night time.

TED says 8 days left in the billing cycle.
271 kWh used(by both Sanyos) and 379 kWh ($82) projected for the month.

About 12.63 kWh per day is like using 526.4 watts 24/7 on average.

Since the average temperature during this billing cycle (so far) has been 42 °F,
my cold-weather-power use forecast, is for using 600 to 800 watts on ave.
Around 17 kWh per day will push us over 500 kWh during the next billing cycle (or two).

The good news is, our base NStar rate should be back in effect (next cycle),
and will cut our the cost per kWh. 7.306 cents, instead of Dominion's 12.2 cents! 40% off? Not really.
Our total cost (with taxes & fees) was 21.6 cents per kwh..
Next cycle, we should save about $25 on heating cost.



The other good news is, our oil tank is still pretty full.
A lady we know, just paid $750 for about 192 gallons of oil.

If that 192 gallons lasted her one month, then she paid 9x more than we will, using ASHPs..

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by Xringer

If that 192 gallons lasted her one month, then she paid 9x more than we will, using ASHPs..

#2 Fuel Oil = 140,000 BTU / gal

Her fuel oil = (140,000 * 192) BTU @ $750

= 26,880,000 BTU / $750
= 35,840 BTU / $1 (assume 100% eff.)
= 23,296 BTU / $1 (assume 65% eff.)
= $1 / 23,296 BTU (assume 65% eff.)

Your electricity = $0.216 / KW-h

= $0.216 / 3,412 BTU/hr (assume COP = 1)
= $0.216 / 8,530 BTU/hr (assume COP = 2.5)
= $1 / 39,491 BTU/hr (assume COP = 2.5)

She is definitely paying more per BTU to heat her place, but 9x is leaving something very fundamental out of the comparison.

You might want to either tell her that she needs to close her windows in the winter, or else you need to check your assumptions.

-AC_Hacker

[Xringer]

That's why I said "If that 192 gallons lasted her one month".
I really don't know how many days have passed since her last fill-up..
But, if it was just a month, that's not too good.

I've seen her home and it's an old two story building.
Just guessing, but it's not likely there is much insulation installed.
The houses on that street look a lot older than my 1956 house.


"An average home with a 275 gallon heating oil tank (250 usable gallons) will use 5-6 gallons per day in January giving the tank approximately 41 days of storage."
Home Propane Costs Buffalo | Home Heating Oil Prices Rochester

192 gallons @ 6 gpd is 32 days of cold weather use..

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by Xringer

192 gallons @ 6 gpd is 32 days of cold weather use..

OK, now I get it... What you are actually saying that in one month the old lady (average home) is using:

one month oil = 26,880,000 BTU (total heat content)

one month oil = 17,472,000 BTU (@ 65% eff)

and in one month you are using:

one month heat pump = 3,232,870 BTU (@ COP 2.5)

So it looks like the old lady is suffering an 5.4 to 1 thermal disadvantage just because of the house she is living in... That is the real story here... It has to do with insulation and size of heated space.

Because if the old lady used the same kind of Sanyos as you use, she would need 11 of them to heat her place...

Then, on top of that, you are paying 59 cents for every BTU that the old lady is paying 1 dollar for... If the old lady got the 11 Sanyos, it would slash her heating bill to $487.50.

Seems like a lot to me, since I'm paying about $20 per month.

Xringer, have you thought that you should really do a thermal intervention on the old lady?

I mean, would you be able to forgive yourself if she was found in the basement of her low R-value house, huddled next to the empty oil tank, frozen to death?

Maybe she could telephone Hugo Chavez and ask him for some cheap oil. It's pretty clear that our government really doesn't care.

I think insulation is the key.

-AC_Hacker

[Xringer]

I think most of the houses on my street need an intervention..
Almost all were built in 1956, when the first wall and attic insulation was being used.
(Forced requirement for VA home loans, I think).
The "Insulation" in these homes consisted of a silver foil looking paper batten (1/4" thick)
between the studs, with a light sprinkling of some kind of paper pulp stuff inside.
I wonder if it was even an R2...


It was a very hot August (1973) when we moved in an discovered the ceiling actually felt hot to the touch!
I could feel the radian heat on the top of my head(and I still had hair then)!

There was no pull-down stairs, and I had to unroll and fold the foil-backed fiberglass insulation in half,
so I could pull it up into the attic, though the tiny hatch in the ceiling of a closet.

It was hot working up there. During one break, I reached up to feel the
ceiling with both hands, I could easily tell exactly where I had already insulated.
Once finished, the summer felt much nicer in our new home in the burbs..
The difference was amazing!

Since then, I've added two more layers up there. Well worth the parts-n-labor..

[poleikleng]

Originally Posted by Xringer

It's costing us some serious bucks to heat the Den (& the house) this winter.
Sanyo#2 has been running the same hours as Sanyo#1 in the LR.
It's been getting a little colder each week (but it's still warmer than last year).

We have been using the Den every day and have kept the temperature setting
the same as the house. 21C during the day and 19 or 20 at night time.

TED says 8 days left in the billing cycle.
271 kWh used(by both Sanyos) and 379 kWh ($82) projected for the month.

About 12.63 kWh per day is like using 526.4 watts 24/7 on average.

Since the average temperature during this billing cycle (so far) has been 42 °F,
my cold-weather-power use forecast, is for using 600 to 800 watts on ave.
Around 17 kWh per day will push us over 500 kWh during the next billing cycle (or two).

The good news is, our base NStar rate should be back in effect (next cycle),
and will cut our the cost per kWh. 7.306 cents, instead of Dominion's 12.2 cents! 40% off? Not really.
Our total cost (with taxes & fees) was 21.6 cents per kwh..
Next cycle, we should save about $25 on heating cost.



The other good news is, our oil tank is still pretty full.
A lady we know, just paid $750 for about 192 gallons of oil.

If that 192 gallons lasted her one month, then she paid 9x more than we will, using ASHPs..

Xringer, what do you set your Sanyo remote to achieve the 21C temperature?

Poleikleng

[Xringer]

I just set the remote to operate in Celsius mode and select 21C..

The C-F button is located at the center bottom (under the cover).




I 'think' the remote operates in the Celsius mode internally.
IMHO, when you select Fahrenheit, it just does a rough translation to the nearest rounded off Fahrenheit number.

[Xringer]

Climatological Data

Left both units at 20C at midnight(when it was 16.7 °F outside), and the house was still at 20C at 6AM.(5.6 °F outdoors).
Still had warm air from both units (~80-85F).

7:00AM it was 4.7 °F and 10.7 kWh had been used. Averaging 1.53 KW per hour since midnight.
7:30AM 4.5 °F & 12.0 kWh
8:00AM 5.0 °F & 12.9 kWh

However, between 7 & 8AM, power use had increased to a 2.2 kWh rate. Why so much?

8:30AM 5.8 °F & Sanyo#2 slowed w/ a few LED flashes it went idle..
The Den had dropped to 19C.

I cycled the power off, inspected the ODU. Everything looked fine.
Re-powered Sanyo#2 and had normal operation.

BUT, the remote temp display stayed at 19C.
After setting for 21C, the temperature came up okay. (to 21).

I think the Den is responding 'slower', because of my actions.
When the sun started to show up at 7AM, I opened the two east side window curtains.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...0slot/z219.jpg

I also opened the north-side sliding glass door curtains (abt 60%).
These are thermal curtains, and they do help insulate the room from heat loss.

So, I suspect that Sanyo#2 could not keep with the loss at 5.0 °F..?.
Hence the 19C room temp.. (50 sq feet of windows now exposed).

Sanyo#2 may have been using extra power, trying to keep up.
If the remote issued a call for more heat, while #2 was already
using near max power, a small power surge might have put it
over the 10A setting of the current limiter..
Which caused a quick hiccup re-set to occur..?.
(The short LED flash cycle that I saw).?.

Once I add the 555 timer hack http://ecorenovator.org/forum/applia...html#post19088
to it's power-limiter, we should be able to clearly see when there has been a reset..

I call it my 555 plan.. And it will be implemented during the next mild day!

[poleikleng]

Originally Posted by Xringer

Climatological Data

Left both units at 20C at midnight(when it was 16.7 °F outside), and the house was still at 20C at 6AM.(5.6 °F outdoors).
Still had warm air from both units (~80-85F).

7:00AM it was 4.7 °F and 10.7 kWh had been used. Averaging 1.53 KW per hour since midnight.
7:30AM 4.5 °F & 12.0 kWh
8:00AM 5.0 °F & 12.9 kWh

However, between 7 & 8AM, power use had increased to a 2.2 kWh rate. Why so much?

8:30AM 5.8 °F & Sanyo#2 slowed w/ a few LED flashes it went idle..
The Den had dropped to 19C.

I cycled the power off, inspected the ODU. Everything looked fine.
Re-powered Sanyo#2 and had normal operation.

BUT, the remote temp display stayed at 19C.
After setting for 21C, the temperature came up okay. (to 21).

I think the Den is responding 'slower', because of my actions.
When the sun started to show up at 7AM, I opened the two east side window curtains.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...0slot/z219.jpg

I also opened the north-side sliding glass door curtains (abt 60%).
These are thermal curtains, and they do help insulate the room from heat loss.

So, I suspect that Sanyo#2 could not keep with the loss at 5.0 °F..?.
Hence the 19C room temp.. (50 sq feet of windows now exposed).

Sanyo#2 may have been using extra power, trying to keep up.
If the remote issued a call for more heat, while #2 was already
using near max power, a small power surge might have put it
over the 10A setting of the current limiter..
Which caused a quick hiccup re-set to occur..?.
(The short LED flash cycle that I saw).?.

Once I add the 555 timer hack http://ecorenovator.org/forum/applia...html#post19088
to it's power-limiter, we should be able to clearly see when there has been a reset..

I call it my 555 plan.. And it will be implemented during the next mild day!

Xringer,

7:15 am, 6.4 F degrees outside temperature, 64.2 F degrees inside, air from the inside air handler was 121 F degrees. We did experience a defrost cycle later in the morning, inside temperature dropped from 65.1 F to 64 F degrees during this cycle.

We did use our upstairs unit last night, set the remote for 62 F degrees, anything higher the bedroom would have been too warm.

Poleikleng

[Xringer]

121 deg F is pretty warm.. Sounds like those things are working extremely well..



Looking at that dew-point line, means your coil had to be around
-10 deg F to accumulate frost.?. That's cool to say the least..
I just ran out and checked underneath both my ODUs and there isn't a trace of ice.
So, our coils never got below the dew-point temp..

I'm glad I picked up some extra space heaters yesterday at HomeDepot,
since the forecast for Monday morning is for below Zero at dawn.

I hope to get to bed early tonight, so when my 2.0 deg F alarm goes off,
I'll be ready to get up and watch all the gauges..


This morning, the dip under 5.0 °F, lasted from 6:30 until 8:00..
Maybe if it's 1.5 hours tomorrow morning, I'll skate by without burning any oil..?.
I now have 3 ceramic and 1 oil-filled space heater..
At 900watt each, (medium power setting) that's 2.700 watts. (9213 BTUh)..
If I have to burn up 4 or 5 extra KWh, no big deal.. Compared to burning Black Gold!