Why dig??

[MN Renovator]

I've thought about that. My gas bill when the furnace is off is consistently 7CCF or 8CCF. My bill has a $2.50 city tax and a $8 'basic service' fee. My bill with 8CCF is about $15.

The problem is that we just hit -20F yesterday which is the design 1% temperature where I live and probably the coldest day of January, last years lowest temp was -18.6F in my city. I can't use an air source heat pump, except for the Zuba but the efficiency numbers on the Zuba seem much worse than other air source pumps and the Zuba is probably way out of a cost effective price range for natural gas.

$.746/therm for 30-110 therms
Yesterdays stats
High 2.6 °F Low -20.2 °F Average -7.6 °F
Peak sun was 550 but outside of the 15 minute window, it was about 200 from 9:30AM to 3PM
Furnace ran a total of 7 hours 0 minutes
Input rate is 75000 BTU so 5.25CCF and our therm conversion is pretty much flat here .99372.
$.746/therm for 30-110 therms -This month, the coldest won't use 110.
(5.25*.99372)*.746=$3.892 for the coldest day of the month with a 76% efficient furnace heating.
First 8 hours and 45 minutes used 3hr and 3 minutes which was the coldest part of the night ranging between -13f the first hour, hitting -20 at 7am and warming quickly with the sun to -15 at 8:45am. 57000 BTU output running .35% of the time. Oversized!

...that's not my point though. Most of the December to February winter here has single digit nights which is when the furnace is really needed, no sun for a passive house either, even with tons of insulation a heater would likely still be needed to balance the temps. An ASHP is probably not ideal and November my gas bill was $25, December being a few cents short of $70. January probably $100. Equipment costs get me because I'm struggling with getting a good guess on the cost, installed, of a 95% or higher variable speed furnace, possibly 2 stage so I can go small(thinking 30k output), but have some room for a 2 hour setback recovery from 50 to 70(45k would be enough for a 8.4 degree recovery rate per hour at 0 degrees outside if I figure my 57k output gives me 12 degree heat rise over an hour at that temp).

What would a professional GSHP cost me though? Operating costs can be high with heating but equipment costs in comparison to the difference in the heating costs seem tough to work out. I can't imagine a DIY drill with a post-hole digger that I rent for $40 for a day and drill a bunch of holes will get close to the COP of a decent certified and test ground source heat pump system. If the coldest month is $100 for me($150 with the previous owners last year) with 8 inches of attic insulation, noticeable holes in wall insulation and 5/8" gaps around the windows under the trim. In a house that I will be insulating and air sealing as much as I can without ripping it down, I imagine I can have $100 for a more comfortable temperature next year or cheaper than $100 for say 65 degrees.

Either my natural gas is cheaper than everyone else and my winter electricity price at 11 cents including all of the fees and taxes that are based on kw usage directly. I'm trying to figure out if it could break even in my area even if I factored replacement cost of gas furnace with 95% versus GSHP over say 20 years. Maybe my situation is unique. It definitely would be better than heating oil anywhere, not sure how it compares with propane or other sources of heat. For whole house heat in a central air setup, I'm not sure anything would beat the cost of a GSHP for running costs compared to any other fuel, short of chopping down a fallen forest in the backyard to those who have such as resource available.

[Xringer]

"High 2.6 °F Low -20.2 °F Average -7.6 °F"!!!

I've got the best solution.. Move to the sun belt!! Of course, that's just me.
I have to put on a parka to watch the movie "Fargo" or "The Day After Tomorrow"..




Yeppers, People born in South Texas should never be exposed to snow or cold weather.
It could cause irreversible harm!!

I remember when I was a kid.. "Momma, what's a snow shovel"?

Edit:
It's now 9:50PM..
6.3 °F, Clear, Windchill: 6 °F, Humidity: 82%

And, my meter shows the Sanyo is using 490watts (it's set to 21C).
It's not putting out a ton of heat, but it's not doing to bad. Output air coil is 85F.
~
Got bored and stepped it up to 22C. It moved up to 1400w for a few minutes and then
dropped down to 900w, now 880 and so on.. The fan is running faster now and the air warmer. Coil is now 100 degs F..
Have no clue about the BTUs, but it feels good!!

For BeanTown, this is a pretty cold night.. And the Sanyo seems to be holding it's own..

[ThomSjay]

Going back to the original post, I did a quick search and found this! Air Source Heat Pumps for Cold Weather If you look about half-way down the page the poster named biggarthomas installed one of the Zuba-Central units. And the price...


TomS

[Xringer]

Wow! That was with 2.5 days of labor. How many installers?
But, 15,000 Canadian dollars is a pretty good sum.. Get you a real nice used Prius..

That guy also posted here: http://forums.redflagdeals.com/zuba-...ne-has-808426/

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by Xringer

...15,000 Canadian dollars is a pretty good sum.. Get you a real nice used Prius..

$15K could be a very good start toward a GSHP installation... It could also be used to buy a heck of lot of insulation/high quality windows.

-AC_Hacker

[Xringer]

That would be a good down payment on the labor cost for a GSHP..

Unless you were a DIYer..

If I was a betting man, I would bet that 2.5 days of labor for a crew
of skilled guys, is likely the more than 1/2 the total installed cost.


Just wait, those Zuba-Central units or something similar will available in the USA someday..
And, in another 20 years, maybe we can buy them on-line and do a DIY install..

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by Xringer

...Just wait, those Zuba-Central units or something similar will available...maybe we can buy them on-line and do a DIY install...

I think it would be a better bet to wait for climate change to keep you warm on those chilly nights.

-AC_Hacker