Ecomodded Fridge saves $$ (added foam insulation) - Page 5

Daox · 11-05-12, 12:43 PM

I wouldn't necessarily say it heats the house. I'd say that it removes the heat from the fridge that was taken from the house in the first place. There of course will be some waste heat from inefficiency of the system.

bizboy · 11-28-12, 09:41 AM

A kilowatt used to run the refrigerator is equivalent to using a kilowatt to run an electric heater as far as putting heat into a house. Running the refrigerator or any other appliance or light is a higher and better use for generating heat, since you are getting a dual usage.

Think of it as a black box. Any energy that you put into the box, no matter what is in the box using the energy, will result in heating up the interior of the box equivalent to the energy you put in. Entropy. The use of the energy will eventually degrade to heat.

I’ve always thought that when we run out of oil, our great-grand kids will be amazed that we burned oil as a heat source.
Zard

Exeric · 11-28-12, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox

I wouldn't necessarily say it heats the house. I'd say that it removes the heat from the fridge that was taken from the house in the first place. There of course will be some waste heat from inefficiency of the system.

Yes, it not worth making it a more complicated idea than it has to be. A refrigerator is a heat pump. There is never perfect efficiency so whenever you are running the compressor energy is being wasted in the conversion process. It comes out as heat. This is separate from the heat generated that is just returned back to the room the refrigerator sits in.

The inefficency heat is a wasteful type of heat. But then most heating systems are to greater or lesser extent. What one needs to figure out is if the inefficiency and cost of running the refrigerator is worse than the heating system your house has. (Solar heat uses free energy even if it might be an inefficient system.) If it is more costly then you should insulate it and try to keep it from running as much as possible and use your home heating system to entirely heat the house. If it's less costly than the heating system then just let it run as much as it wants and don't insulate it. This would be based on a heating system that is already in and paid for and not a based on a system you are planning to put in and that you borrow money to pay for.

In both cases the biggest return would be to vent the heat outside with a duct damper when it's already too hot in the house.

Mikesolar · 11-29-12, 07:30 AM

ECO, where did you get the PCM?

bizboy · 11-29-12, 08:37 AM

I think for me the concept of efficiency is how much use can I get out of a kilowatt of energy. Even though they say that an electric heater is 100% efficient in converting electricity to heat, I would rather use that same electricity to power (for example) a refrigerator, thus getting the same heating effect in the house PLUS getting a place to store milk. If I could also surround those refrigerator coils with a water heater, thus heating water before the heat leaked out to the house, then I would be getting 3 uses out of that same energy. Is that more than 100% efficient in converting the electrical power into heat? Of course not. It’s still 100% efficient in converting that electricity into heat. It’s just that I got so much more out of it as the high quality electrical energy degraded into lower temp heat.

Absolutely, if you live where your house is hot in the summer, insulate your refrigerator. The heat from my refrigerator does overheat my house in the daytime in the summer for about a month. (I’m at 9000 feet in Rockies) For me it’s not worth it to spend the time and money to insulate my refrigerator to reduce its already low usage, about 20 kwh/month. I just open the windows.
Zard

ecomodded · 12-01-12, 03:44 PM

Fridges want to be heaters.
But its gonna take some work.

As it is the refrigerator takes the house heat from inside the fridge and puts it back in the house. The condenser heat is scavenged from the fridge/house heat, the compressor heat is 'new' heat that was derived from the electricity/watts consumed.
But wait..
Having the refrigerator outside and the compressor and condenser coil indoors would solve the problem.

Solar M
I used pop and juice containers filled with water(see photo previous page)
I have plans on trying a new material, 12" sq. ceramic tiles, with half inch spacers placed between them.

ecomodded · 02-10-13, 07:30 PM

I retested my fridge with & without the 10 gallons of water in various 2L pop/juice containers.

In each of the first tests from the previous page, the Kill-A-Watt readings were derived from a 24hr. period, which now been proved to be to short of a test period.

My new test results were taken over a 178hr period each, with and without water jugs and tested twice. The same results/ usage was noted and used for confirmation and continuity.

Results are calculated with an electricity rate of $0.102 per kWh.

With water jugs:

$23.33 yearly average or 6 cents a day, .44 cents a week and $1.90 month

without water jugs:

Exactly the same results as with water jugs, which was hard to believe, but proved to be the case at $23.33 per year.

Moral of the story:
When conducting tests, tests over a longer period then 24hrs.
then test it again to prove or disprove the accuracy.

Conclusion

Adding the water jugs proved to have no measurable benefit as related to electrical consumption. Much to my chagrin, but facts are facts.

ecomodded · 02-10-13, 11:11 PM

I had these packed in the bottom of the fridge.
They did do one thing, made my fridge look packed, that's bout it.
The fridge now looks like I am starving poor.. I'm not, but the fridge is awfully empty now.

Piwoslaw · 02-11-13, 12:06 AM

Ecomodded, where were the bottles stored while the fridge was being tested without them? Did you start the test with bottles immediately after the test without? Or did you allow 1-2 days for the bottles to reach fridge temperature before resuming testing? Also, was the kitchen's temperature the same during all tests? No open windows or sunlight?

Displacing volume in the fridge reduces the amount of cold air that escapes when the door is open, so the more often the door is opened during both tests, the larger the difference in energy consumption. If you hardly open the fridge door (which I was able to do when living alone

), then the bottles only increase the compressor on and off cycles. This is also good for the fridge, but more in the long term.

ecomodded · 02-11-13, 04:47 PM

The house temperature was constant night and day at 19 C.
Same grey overcast weather outside, i never leave a window open in the winter.

I tested each test 2x in succession.
The water jugs had been in the fridge for months before i began the test.
I ran the first test with the water jugs in the fridge,then repeated it by resetting the kill-a-watt meter and ran the test again, back to back.
I then tested it twice without the water jugs. Made no sense to me but the numbers matched up perfectly. I suspect the cold air curtain installed in the fridge provided the continuity for the tests, cancelling out any of the effects of air escaping. The test was strictly on the water jugs benefit from the added mass, as no air was escaping from the water jug area in either of the 4 tests.

11-05-12, 12:43 PM	#41
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	I wouldn't necessarily say it heats the house. I'd say that it removes the heat from the fridge that was taken from the house in the first place. There of course will be some waste heat from inefficiency of the system. __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

02-10-13, 07:30 PM	#47
ecomodded Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Vancouver Island,Canada. Posts: 1,037 Thanks: 116 Thanked 100 Times in 87 Posts	I retested my fridge with & without the 10 gallons of water in various 2L pop/juice containers. In each of the first tests from the previous page, the Kill-A-Watt readings were derived from a 24hr. period, which now been proved to be to short of a test period. My new test results were taken over a 178hr period each, with and without water jugs and tested twice. The same results/ usage was noted and used for confirmation and continuity. Results are calculated with an electricity rate of $0.102 per kWh. With water jugs: $23.33 yearly average or 6 cents a day, .44 cents a week and $1.90 month without water jugs: Exactly the same results as with water jugs, which was hard to believe, but proved to be the case at $23.33 per year. Moral of the story: When conducting tests, tests over a longer period then 24hrs. then test it again to prove or disprove the accuracy. Conclusion Adding the water jugs proved to have no measurable benefit as related to electrical consumption. Much to my chagrin, but facts are facts. Last edited by ecomodded; 02-10-13 at 07:33 PM..

02-10-13, 11:11 PM	#48
ecomodded Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Vancouver Island,Canada. Posts: 1,037 Thanks: 116 Thanked 100 Times in 87 Posts	The test jugs I had these packed in the bottom of the fridge. They did do one thing, made my fridge look packed, that's bout it. The fridge now looks like I am starving poor.. I'm not, but the fridge is awfully empty now. Attached Thumbnails

02-11-13, 12:06 AM	#49
Piwoslaw Super Moderator Join Date: May 2009 Location: Warsaw, Poland Posts: 961 Thanks: 188 Thanked 110 Times in 86 Posts	Ecomodded, where were the bottles stored while the fridge was being tested without them? Did you start the test with bottles immediately after the test without? Or did you allow 1-2 days for the bottles to reach fridge temperature before resuming testing? Also, was the kitchen's temperature the same during all tests? No open windows or sunlight? Displacing volume in the fridge reduces the amount of cold air that escapes when the door is open, so the more often the door is opened during both tests, the larger the difference in energy consumption. If you hardly open the fridge door (which I was able to do when living alone), then the bottles only increase the compressor on and off cycles. This is also good for the fridge, but more in the long term. __________________ Ecorenovation - the bottomless piggy bank that tries to tame the energy hog.

11-28-12, 09:41 AM	#42
bizboy Zenovator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Northern MN Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	A kilowatt used to run the refrigerator is equivalent to using a kilowatt to run an electric heater as far as putting heat into a house. Running the refrigerator or any other appliance or light is a higher and better use for generating heat, since you are getting a dual usage. Think of it as a black box. Any energy that you put into the box, no matter what is in the box using the energy, will result in heating up the interior of the box equivalent to the energy you put in. Entropy. The use of the energy will eventually degrade to heat. I’ve always thought that when we run out of oil, our great-grand kids will be amazed that we burned oil as a heat source. Zard

11-29-12, 07:30 AM	#44
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	ECO, where did you get the PCM?

11-29-12, 08:37 AM	#45
bizboy Zenovator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Northern MN Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I think for me the concept of efficiency is how much use can I get out of a kilowatt of energy. Even though they say that an electric heater is 100% efficient in converting electricity to heat, I would rather use that same electricity to power (for example) a refrigerator, thus getting the same heating effect in the house PLUS getting a place to store milk. If I could also surround those refrigerator coils with a water heater, thus heating water before the heat leaked out to the house, then I would be getting 3 uses out of that same energy. Is that more than 100% efficient in converting the electrical power into heat? Of course not. It’s still 100% efficient in converting that electricity into heat. It’s just that I got so much more out of it as the high quality electrical energy degraded into lower temp heat. Absolutely, if you live where your house is hot in the summer, insulate your refrigerator. The heat from my refrigerator does overheat my house in the daytime in the summer for about a month. (I’m at 9000 feet in Rockies) For me it’s not worth it to spend the time and money to insulate my refrigerator to reduce its already low usage, about 20 kwh/month. I just open the windows. Zard

12-01-12, 03:44 PM	#46
ecomodded Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Vancouver Island,Canada. Posts: 1,037 Thanks: 116 Thanked 100 Times in 87 Posts	Fridges want to be heaters. But its gonna take some work. As it is the refrigerator takes the house heat from inside the fridge and puts it back in the house. The condenser heat is scavenged from the fridge/house heat, the compressor heat is 'new' heat that was derived from the electricity/watts consumed. But wait.. Having the refrigerator outside and the compressor and condenser coil indoors would solve the problem. Solar M I used pop and juice containers filled with water(see photo previous page) I have plans on trying a new material, 12" sq. ceramic tiles, with half inch spacers placed between them.

02-11-13, 04:47 PM	#50
ecomodded Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Vancouver Island,Canada. Posts: 1,037 Thanks: 116 Thanked 100 Times in 87 Posts	The house temperature was constant night and day at 19 C. Same grey overcast weather outside, i never leave a window open in the winter. I tested each test 2x in succession. The water jugs had been in the fridge for months before i began the test. I ran the first test with the water jugs in the fridge,then repeated it by resetting the kill-a-watt meter and ran the test again, back to back. I then tested it twice without the water jugs. Made no sense to me but the numbers matched up perfectly. I suspect the cold air curtain installed in the fridge provided the continuity for the tests, cancelling out any of the effects of air escaping. The test was strictly on the water jugs benefit from the added mass, as no air was escaping from the water jug area in either of the 4 tests.