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Old 09-20-10, 09:53 AM   #311
Ron342
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Default Electric vs gas motors

Also - for some reason (likely overrated gas motors) I have always found that a 2 hp continuous duty electric motor will do about the same work a 4 or even a 5 hp gas motor will deliver even at wide open throttle - and the gas motor won't live long at that load!
Ac Hacker - did you ever get back to work on plumbing up and instrumenting your unit?? You have a big following on this!

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Old 09-20-10, 11:28 AM   #312
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Default Genius of Many Hands => elegant methodology

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Ac Hacker - did you ever get back to work on plumbing up and instrumenting your unit?? You have a big following on this!
Ron342,

I have about 700 feet of 3/4 inch pipe buried in the backyard, all welded & tested, with the ends dressed through the basement wall, waiting for the next step.

I also have all the compressor parts and heat exchangers ready to be assembled and brazed together.

I took what I thought would be a minor side-trip to do a non-standard remodel my bathroom, but it has turned out to be a very major undertaking, with many problems, dead-ends, and expensive solutions... but the end is in sight.

I know that 'The Manifesto' has a big following, which is gratifying. And I will see this project through to the end. I have tested along the way, to verify that various parts are functioning. So I have great confidence that the system will perform at least as well as envisioned. I have come to expect that problems will arise, and solutions will need to be found.

My hope all along has been that other people will be encouraged by my efforts, imperfect as they have been, and will try their own projects along similar lines.

It is wonderful to see what Vlad is doing! Already I have learned from him how I might proceed on the Radiant Floor part of my project. I'm pretty sure that if Vlad is letting us know about the project he is doing, that there are other people who have embarked on similar projects, who haven't documented and published their projects yet. I'm hoping that we'll hear from them in due time.

I really do think that there is a 'genius of many hands' where one person's solution to a problem becomes available to others that follow, and that eventually an elegant methodology will evolve. I hope we see this happening.

Well Ron342, that's it for now, I have work to do...

Regards,

-AC_Hacker

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Old 09-20-10, 12:07 PM   #313
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Default The rig

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Vlad - You're right about the 1" drills - I think they would flex around in the hole with any kind of torque and maybe break at the joints but 200' ft of 2 inch pipe is really heavy - how deep are you planning on having to go??
This is why I bought 2500 lb winch to lift the pipe. For joints I used high pressure hydraulic couplings. They are made of steel not cast iron and are really expensive. I am going 120' deep 5 wells.
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Old 10-14-10, 10:08 PM   #314
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Default

somehow, I got unsubscribed from this thread.
Re-Subscribed! (hopefully)
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Old 10-16-10, 02:06 AM   #315
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Default First drilling experience

Finally I finished building my rig. I had to change a lot of things. First I raised it up , added small wheels to move the whole thing around. After first test I noticed that I did not need too much pressure for hydraulic system because of this I switched back to electric motor (less smell and less noise). I was impressed how the rig was drilling. The first issue came at about 30-40 feet. I had to add extra 2000 lb of weight and add winch (just manual one) to pull drilling head down. At 50-55 feet I got solid rock. The trycone bit was doing OK but it took time. At 65 feet I decided to try another hole just to make sure. I got the same solid rock (I went through 10-15 feet of it). The rig was doing well but it takes too much time. I decided do drill all holes 60-65 feet instead of fighting solid rock. I put first u-tubes in the hole put 1 tube with them to pump grout in the hole. Here I realized I could not pump grout. My pump gave up. Now I need to find solution for pimping grout. Another (the major) problem is weather. Summer is over we are getting rain every 2-3 days. It makes it impossible to continue now. I decided to postpone the project until next spring. I will get rest of things together find grout pump and start it over when weather is good (I guess it will be next spring). At this point for me there is no point fight mud and dirt. I still have a lot of things to finish inside the house.
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Old 10-16-10, 02:12 AM   #316
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Default

I glad I use 2 inch pipe for drilling. I pushed it down with winch (about 3000-3500 lb) the smaller pipe would brake or bend.
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Old 10-17-10, 02:12 PM   #317
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Default Vlad, good to hear your progress...

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Finally I finished building my rig. I had to change a lot of things. First I raised it up , added small wheels to move the whole thing around. After first test I noticed that I did not need too much pressure for hydraulic system because of this I switched back to electric motor (less smell and less noise). I was impressed how the rig was drilling.
Vlad,

Good to hear your progress...

Your drilling rig sounds impressive. I sure would like to see some pictures of what you built.

I like the idea of going electric. Of course you understand the trade-offs of working with electricity in a wet environment. I was only using 120 volts, I assume you're using 240 volts. I made sure that I had a ground fault interuptor (AKA: GFI) where my power came from the house. The only time I got any kind of shock was when my GFI was repeatedly tripping and I assumed it was not working, so I by-passed the GFI. I wasn't very smart, I should have found the source of the short (it was water damage) and fixed it. Is there any way to have GFI for 240 volts?

But being able to get down 60 feet is very impressive!

Here is a diagram from the IGSHPA manual (CLGS Installation Guide #21020)


So you can see that the steady-state temperatures that you are seeking, begin at 12 to 20 foot deep.

Quote:
I want to drill 6 holes each 100-120’ deep and I want to make it for sure.
So if you were previously going for 6 x 120 = 720 feet...

...with the new depth of 60 feet, you'd need 12 holes...

...but since the temperatures are more stable the deeper you go, you will probably need more than 12 holes to achieve the same effect as your initial design...

...I don't know exactly, but my best guess is that you would need at least 15 holes at 60 feet deep.

Good idea to stop working on the boreholes in the wet and cold. In addition to electrical hazard there is the added hazard of slower than normal reaction time in cold temperatures. I had this problem too.

Best regards,

-AC_Hacker

Last edited by AC_Hacker; 10-18-10 at 12:48 AM..
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Old 10-17-10, 04:31 PM   #318
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Default Drilling in the mud

AC_Hacker I forgot to tell that I am refrigeration mechanic by trade. I used to work on rooftops around 600V standing in the water (you know our climate: liquid sun). But I do agree You have to be careful, life can be shorten really quick. I will post pictures of drilling rig. We still have 2-3 good days left. I am trying to finish things outside.
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Old 10-18-10, 02:04 AM   #319
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Default Some thoughts about loop design

AC_Hacker you forgot to add header 1 1/4 pipe connecting 3/4 vertical loops. When you have 5 holes you only have 60 feet of double header. When you have 12 holes you have 165 feet of double header. In our climate official frost line is above 18"(the deepest frost I saw was only 2-3" bellow ). The headers are 4 feet down. I have nice yellow wet clay at that depth. I would consider headers as part of the loop.
Another thing I was thinking about is we do not have real winter. Cold is only at night. During day time the temperature is often 48-55. You can use loop as large thermo accumulator (even low temp). During day time when heat demand is low and temperature outside is "high" you can gain some heat from air and transfer it to underground loop, increasing loop capacity. In my case I can add couple sun collectors on my roof, which has south exposure and during day time return line fluid before going back underground can go through sun collectors, gain heat and transfer it back to ground. At night when heat demand is high, you can extract this heat.
Convenient heat pump(air to air or air to water) do not work properly in our climate because when you need heat you have cold air and a lot of moisture in it which freezes the coil. You have to cycle heat pump to melt ice. And during day time when you do not need much heat you have plenty of it in air (moisture creates the same problem).
I think in our particular climate you can have much smaller loop combined with air coil or sun collector which will heat loop back (not directly refrigerant coil) in this case loop is not going to be only source of heat but the accumulator as well.

Last edited by Vlad; 10-18-10 at 02:11 AM..
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Old 10-18-10, 09:26 AM   #320
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Default

Being plagued by moist air during day does cause problems with ASHPs.

(At just above freezing)

ASHPs also have icing problems, when sucking in snow during heavy snow fall.
One of my problems was rain (during cold weather) dripping down the wall
and splashing into the coil.. Sealing out the water from above should work for me.
I'm lucky because this condition occurs very rarely.


Your idea of storing solar heat during the day and using it at night makes good sense for your local weather.

Just hope there isn't an underground river effect pulling your solar heat away, downhill..
A solar storage tank could be the other option..

Cheers,
Rich

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