Don't mess with gas water heaters! (if you don't know what you're doing)

Xringer · 03-11-14, 10:35 AM

Last week, my kid calls and tells me her gas hot water heater is leaking.(It's about 10 years old).
I told her to call a plumber, since I know next to NOTHING about gas heat of any kind.

Later, she calls back and begs me to help her pick out a new water heater..
I tell he NO! I can't. She says the plumber told her to get one at HD and he will install it..
After much begging, I relent, but tell her not to blame me, if I accidentally buy a lemon..

So, I start looking online.. I know the old heater has PVC vents, and a blower on top.
I assume it's because of the low temp exhaust (restrictive flow HX).
So, I look for a blower on top..

Ah ha! Rheem Performance 40 gal. Tall 6 Year 40,000 BTU Energy Star Power Vent Natural Gas Water Heater-XG40T06PV40U0 at The Home Depot

Dang!! $800, that's crazy!!

So, I keep looking.. And find this one, for $629.. It's got a blower, but still over-priced, but what do I know?
Rheem EcoSense XR90 29 gal. Tall 6 Year 60,000 BTU Natural Gas Water Heater-43V30-60 RE6 at The Home Depot

So, I send her the info on the XR90.. "Is this okay"?
She questioned the small tank.. 29 gallons? Is that enough?
I told her the reviews said yes, as much hotwater as a larger unit..

That should have been a red flag.. But I was too dumb to see it..
After we went and hauled it down to the basement and the plumber
had it in position, he stopped and said, "Hey! This isn't going to work"!
It's got hot exhaust..

Dang, logically I should have known. That XR90 works like a tank-less..
Hence the very small tank.. Meaning HOT exhaust..

So, we have to haul it back to HD and get the $800 model..

Dang this one is even heavier!! I'm almost 70 years old!

I'm so embarrassed.. My kid will never ask me for help again..

Hey, maybe that's not such a bad thing? Maybe she learned something too?
She might want to slow down a bit, (even when the house has no DHW),
and read the fine print, in a little more detail..

Why didn't I notice the extra 20,000 BTUh and not think 'Hey, that might mean hot exhaust?'..

My lesson learned? Is, stay away from gas! It's not safe!

~~~

Now she needs two new CO alarms.. Should I help her pick them?
Maybe not..
I like these cheap models..
Floureon Battery Powered Carbon Monoxide Alarm Sensor White - Amazon.com

ecomodded · 03-11-14, 01:24 PM

Wow expensive !

Do these Gas water heaters still use a pilot light ?

Exringer you should show or tell her some option you are aware of and let her decide then its more her fault when it fails, Just steer her in the right direction.

Never go to help someone buy a car based on your mechanical ability, the first time there's a major expense the focus will be on you like you preplanned it..lol

Daox · 03-11-14, 01:59 PM

Power vent hot water heaters are a lot more expensive, but they're also quite a bit more efficient. Sadly, the rheem isn't all that much more efficient. Most natural gas units with the exhaust up the middle are ~55% efficient. This one is 67% (still 20% less gas used than a 55%). They get up in the high 90s though if you're willing to pay up front for it.

When you think of how much your hot water use accounts for in your house, its usually worth paying extra for it. With my old (now replaced) 55% efficient gas water heater, I used about $230 worth in hot water a year ($0.95/therm). Going to a 67% efficient water heater would save me $40/year, or $400 in 10 years (assuming gas prices don't go up, haha). Going to Rheems 82% efficient water heater would save me $75 per month, or $750 in 10 years. The efficiency adds up fast! I've been told most tank water heaters tend to last ~10-15 years depending on your water, and your maintenance habits.

Xringer · 03-11-14, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecomodded

Wow expensive !

Do these Gas water heaters still use a pilot light ?

Exringer you should show or tell her some option you are aware of and let her decide then its more her fault when it fails, Just steer her in the right direction.

Never go to help someone buy a car based on your mechanical ability, the first time there's a major expense the focus will be on you like you preplanned it..lol

I learned not to repair TVs for people. When it dies again in a few years, they call me right back, saying that I didn't fix it right..

A few years ago, my sister-in-law was getting ripped off by auto-repair criminals for fuel pumps and catalytic converters etc..
I'm not a car guy, but still decided to help her with her old Toyota.
I read the error code, found how to clean up Dirty MAF Sensor on you tube.

Suddenly her car is running like new, not stalling in the middle of traffic and getting great MPG again.. Nice! She was so happy..

But, there was a fly in the ointment. Her car has a manufacturing defect in the fuel system.
I found the Toyota docs. The fix requires a lot of parts and labor.
She wasn't interested. Instead, I got her a cheap OBD reader..
(Similar problem). 2001 Toyota Echo Emissions Codes Issue : OBD-Codes.com
So she can clear the error codes a 3 days before her next inspection..
Then the errors come right back a few days later..

I understand that most Echo owners have learned to live with the error light on..

About once a year she comes up with an error that won't stay cleared..
I've tried to convince her to use self-service gas stations, but she insist on
full service and the loose gas cap errors..

Every two or three years, I clean the MAF Sensor again, and send her on her way..

Kinda wish that I didn't fix it the first time..

Xringer · 03-11-14, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox

Power vent hot water heaters are a lot more expensive, but they're also quite a bit more efficient. Sadly, the rheem isn't all that much more efficient. Most natural gas units with the exhaust up the middle are ~55% efficient. This one is 67% (still 20% less gas used than a 55%). They get up in the high 90s though if you're willing to pay up front for it.

How did you find out it was 67% efficient? I looked around and didn't see that.
Only saw the XR90 had a rebate.. But, I think there is a state rebate
for a DHW heater that's 67% efficient..

ENERGY STAR® QUALIFIEDSTORAGE WATER HEATER
$100
≥ .67 ENERGY FACTOR
CONDENSING GAS WATER HEATER

MN Renovator · 03-11-14, 05:03 PM

One of the water heaters is a condensing water heater designed to be vented using PVC, the other is designed to be vented through a metal vent.

"My lesson learned? Is, stay away from gas! It's not safe!"

Just because you don't understand the technology doesn't make it unsafe. Today's natural gas appliances are very safe if installed properly. Don't forget you are burning a fuel too, oil, at your house. If you piped the exhaust to the outside with PVC, you'd be in trouble too.

Regarding the higher output rate with a smaller tank, you will get more hot water taking a shower before running out with a 60,000 BTUhr unit than a 40,000 BTUhr unit with a smaller tank and since the tank is smaller you should get less standby losses from the tank. A few issues that aren't covered by that is the thermal efficiency of the units and whether or not they use spark ignition. The reality for me is that I could get away with a ~29 gallon tank and a 40,000BTUhr condensing burner because of a lower flow shower head and be just fine. The 40,000BTUhr input rate will get me more output heat using a condensing burner(90+% burner efficiency) than a traditional burner with a standing pilot.

Xringer · 03-11-14, 05:22 PM

If I don't understand a technology that can kill me, I deem it to be unsafe for me.
Man-handling those things in and out of a basement is also very dangerous for my old back.

I have never seen a home heated by oil heat explode, like 40 sticks of dynamite was set off in the basement.

Well actually, there have been a few cases, when the gas leak pushed gas along the water lines into houses that didn't have gas installed..

IMHO, using gas in your home is a lot bigger risk than using oil heat..

Edit 3/12/2014:
"“For weeks we've been smelling gas," said Ashley Rivera, 21, holding back tears. "We saw people flying out of the window. ... Those are my neighbors."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...#ixzz2vlXfrBXC

jeff5may · 03-12-14, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer

I learned not to repair TVs for people. When it dies again in a few years, they call me right back, saying that I didn't fix it right..

A few years ago, my sister-in-law was getting ripped off by auto-repair criminals for fuel pumps and catalytic converters etc..
I'm not a car guy, but still decided to help her with her old Toyota.
I read the error code, found how to clean up Dirty MAF Sensor on you tube.

Suddenly her car is running like new, not stalling in the middle of traffic and getting great MPG again.. Nice! She was so happy..

But, there was a fly in the ointment. Her car has a manufacturing defect in the fuel system.
I found the Toyota docs. The fix requires a lot of parts and labor.
She wasn't interested. Instead, I got her a cheap OBD reader..
(Similar problem). 2001 Toyota Echo Emissions Codes Issue : OBD-Codes.com
So she can clear the error codes a 3 days before her next inspection..
Then the errors come right back a few days later..

I understand that most Echo owners have learned to live with the error light on..

About once a year she comes up with an error that won't stay cleared..
I've tried to convince her to use self-service gas stations, but she insist on
full service and the loose gas cap errors..

Every two or three years, I clean the MAF Sensor again, and send her on her way..

Kinda wish that I didn't fix it the first time..

I learnt a long time ago how to deal with needy buddies and relatives. Give them a free estimate. Or some free advice. Or offer to buy the broken thing from them for $20. I have gotten a lot of stuff for $20 over the years.

I just picked up a $300 window a/c for $20 bucks. Needs a relay driver IC or a rig-around. Estimate says control board cost $50, buddy says take it.

If it's really an emergency, a good deed can go a long way... depends on the recipient. Usually a decent person will make an offer to help or pay. Your choice whether it's worth your time or not. Then again, some people are not worth the oxygen they breathe.

Xringer · 03-12-14, 08:16 PM

I can't be too hard on people asking me to repair their stuff, sometimes it's kinda fun..
I like it when I can fix something in 10 minutes and never see it again..

But, sometimes it can be a nightmare!

My sister down in Texas wanted me to repair her big screen (rear projection) TV..
The thing was an a sorry excuse for a TV the day it came off the line.
AND, it was way obsolete (3 or 4 years old) when she got it at Costco.
(I think she had owned it for about 8 years before it started to fail)!

I advised her to dump it (like everyone else did) and get a real HDTV..
But, she was dumb and wouldn't listen.

It was only after months of begging and my researching on the web,
did I allow her to send me the bad boards.. They were massive boards..
All this to save $100 labor at a San Antonio repair shop..
I replaced the bad parts, for $40 (Plus a new soldering iron for myself).
Sent the PCBs back and waited for 3 months before they re-installed them..
Then she's calling me about another problem with the TV.. YIKES!

I had to tell her to never call me again! I was no longer her brother,
until she owned a brand name (like Panasonic) big HDTV..

About a week later, I got a call, WOW these new TVs are soooo goooood..
'We should have done this a long time ago'... etc..

I'm betting it was a RCA or some other low quality brand..

That's 20 hours of my life that I'll never get back!!

But, I learned something. NO MORE TV repairs, ever.. (unless mine breaks).

philb · 03-12-14, 10:58 PM

Xringer, I'm just the opposite. I've used propane, natural gas and electric as long as I can remember.
Propane is the most dangerous because it will settle in lower areas such as the floor. Natural gas will mix with the air and dissipate in short order. Basements are the wrong place to put anything that uses propane or natural gas. I'm glad you have a good self preservation instinct.

Fuel oil heating systems are beyond me. I haven't been exposed to them. Can they be ran on #2 diesel? Oil does have many more BTU's per cubic foot vs. natural gas.

03-11-14, 10:35 AM	#1
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Don't mess with gas water heaters! (if you don't know what you're doing) Last week, my kid calls and tells me her gas hot water heater is leaking.(It's about 10 years old). I told her to call a plumber, since I know next to NOTHING about gas heat of any kind. Later, she calls back and begs me to help her pick out a new water heater.. I tell he NO! I can't. She says the plumber told her to get one at HD and he will install it.. After much begging, I relent, but tell her not to blame me, if I accidentally buy a lemon.. So, I start looking online.. I know the old heater has PVC vents, and a blower on top. I assume it's because of the low temp exhaust (restrictive flow HX). So, I look for a blower on top.. Ah ha! Rheem Performance 40 gal. Tall 6 Year 40,000 BTU Energy Star Power Vent Natural Gas Water Heater-XG40T06PV40U0 at The Home Depot Dang!! $800, that's crazy!! So, I keep looking.. And find this one, for $629.. It's got a blower, but still over-priced, but what do I know? Rheem EcoSense XR90 29 gal. Tall 6 Year 60,000 BTU Natural Gas Water Heater-43V30-60 RE6 at The Home Depot So, I send her the info on the XR90.. "Is this okay"? She questioned the small tank.. 29 gallons? Is that enough? I told her the reviews said yes, as much hotwater as a larger unit.. That should have been a red flag.. But I was too dumb to see it.. After we went and hauled it down to the basement and the plumber had it in position, he stopped and said, "Hey! This isn't going to work"! It's got hot exhaust.. Dang, logically I should have known. That XR90 works like a tank-less.. Hence the very small tank.. Meaning HOT exhaust.. So, we have to haul it back to HD and get the $800 model.. Dang this one is even heavier!! I'm almost 70 years old! I'm so embarrassed.. My kid will never ask me for help again.. Hey, maybe that's not such a bad thing? Maybe she learned something too? She might want to slow down a bit, (even when the house has no DHW), and read the fine print, in a little more detail.. Why didn't I notice the extra 20,000 BTUh and not think 'Hey, that might mean hot exhaust?'.. My lesson learned? Is, stay away from gas! It's not safe! ~~~ Now she needs two new CO alarms.. Should I help her pick them? Maybe not.. I like these cheap models.. Floureon Battery Powered Carbon Monoxide Alarm Sensor White - Amazon.com __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

03-11-14, 01:59 PM	#3
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	Power vent hot water heaters are a lot more expensive, but they're also quite a bit more efficient. Sadly, the rheem isn't all that much more efficient. Most natural gas units with the exhaust up the middle are ~55% efficient. This one is 67% (still 20% less gas used than a 55%). They get up in the high 90s though if you're willing to pay up front for it. When you think of how much your hot water use accounts for in your house, its usually worth paying extra for it. With my old (now replaced) 55% efficient gas water heater, I used about $230 worth in hot water a year ($0.95/therm). Going to a 67% efficient water heater would save me $40/year, or $400 in 10 years (assuming gas prices don't go up, haha). Going to Rheems 82% efficient water heater would save me $75 per month, or $750 in 10 years. The efficiency adds up fast! I've been told most tank water heaters tend to last ~10-15 years depending on your water, and your maintenance habits. __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

03-11-14, 05:22 PM	#7
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	If I don't understand a technology that can kill me, I deem it to be unsafe for me. Man-handling those things in and out of a basement is also very dangerous for my old back. I have never seen a home heated by oil heat explode, like 40 sticks of dynamite was set off in the basement. Well actually, there have been a few cases, when the gas leak pushed gas along the water lines into houses that didn't have gas installed.. IMHO, using gas in your home is a lot bigger risk than using oil heat.. Edit 3/12/2014: "“For weeks we've been smelling gas," said Ashley Rivera, 21, holding back tears. "We saw people flying out of the window. ... Those are my neighbors." Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...#ixzz2vlXfrBXC __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less.. Last edited by Xringer; 03-12-14 at 11:18 AM..

03-12-14, 08:16 PM	#9
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	I can't be too hard on people asking me to repair their stuff, sometimes it's kinda fun.. I like it when I can fix something in 10 minutes and never see it again.. But, sometimes it can be a nightmare! My sister down in Texas wanted me to repair her big screen (rear projection) TV.. The thing was an a sorry excuse for a TV the day it came off the line. AND, it was way obsolete (3 or 4 years old) when she got it at Costco. (I think she had owned it for about 8 years before it started to fail)! I advised her to dump it (like everyone else did) and get a real HDTV.. But, she was dumb and wouldn't listen. It was only after months of begging and my researching on the web, did I allow her to send me the bad boards.. They were massive boards.. All this to save $100 labor at a San Antonio repair shop.. I replaced the bad parts, for $40 (Plus a new soldering iron for myself). Sent the PCBs back and waited for 3 months before they re-installed them.. Then she's calling me about another problem with the TV.. YIKES! I had to tell her to never call me again! I was no longer her brother, until she owned a brand name (like Panasonic) big HDTV.. About a week later, I got a call, WOW these new TVs are soooo goooood.. 'We should have done this a long time ago'... etc.. I'm betting it was a RCA or some other low quality brand.. That's 20 hours of my life that I'll never get back!! But, I learned something. NO MORE TV repairs, ever.. (unless mine breaks). __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

03-11-14, 01:24 PM	#2
ecomodded Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Vancouver Island,Canada. Posts: 1,037 Thanks: 116 Thanked 100 Times in 87 Posts	Wow expensive ! Do these Gas water heaters still use a pilot light ? Exringer you should show or tell her some option you are aware of and let her decide then its more her fault when it fails, Just steer her in the right direction. Never go to help someone buy a car based on your mechanical ability, the first time there's a major expense the focus will be on you like you preplanned it..lol

03-11-14, 05:03 PM	#6
MN Renovator Less usage=Cheaper bills Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 939 Thanks: 41 Thanked 116 Times in 90 Posts	One of the water heaters is a condensing water heater designed to be vented using PVC, the other is designed to be vented through a metal vent. "My lesson learned? Is, stay away from gas! It's not safe!" Just because you don't understand the technology doesn't make it unsafe. Today's natural gas appliances are very safe if installed properly. Don't forget you are burning a fuel too, oil, at your house. If you piped the exhaust to the outside with PVC, you'd be in trouble too. Regarding the higher output rate with a smaller tank, you will get more hot water taking a shower before running out with a 60,000 BTUhr unit than a 40,000 BTUhr unit with a smaller tank and since the tank is smaller you should get less standby losses from the tank. A few issues that aren't covered by that is the thermal efficiency of the units and whether or not they use spark ignition. The reality for me is that I could get away with a ~29 gallon tank and a 40,000BTUhr condensing burner because of a lower flow shower head and be just fine. The 40,000BTUhr input rate will get me more output heat using a condensing burner(90+% burner efficiency) than a traditional burner with a standing pilot.

03-12-14, 10:58 PM	#10
philb Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 155 Thanks: 58 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Xringer, I'm just the opposite. I've used propane, natural gas and electric as long as I can remember. Propane is the most dangerous because it will settle in lower areas such as the floor. Natural gas will mix with the air and dissipate in short order. Basements are the wrong place to put anything that uses propane or natural gas. I'm glad you have a good self preservation instinct. Fuel oil heating systems are beyond me. I haven't been exposed to them. Can they be ran on #2 diesel? Oil does have many more BTU's per cubic foot vs. natural gas.