Using basement sump water to cool the house - Page 7

Daox · 08-02-11, 11:41 AM

A few people have gotten confused, its probably my fault. I started the thread talking about my uncle's house who does have unlimited sump water to use. My setup is kind of a proof of concept of the idea, but I don't have the water he does.

I am not sure how long it takes the sump to refill after emptied. Just by me messing around building the stuff the other day its not quick though (unless it rains). The main problem is I don't have proper drain tile around the house. The sump is pretty much just a hole in the ground that water eventually makes its way over to. Its a pending renovation that I haven't gotten to yet.

Daox · 08-02-11, 08:21 PM

Well, I got my first results tonight. I only have it hooked up with one barrel atm and am using the downstairs sink instead of the sump. However, it is working. Here is a picture of the setup.

Here it is in the basement.

Here is the fan setup upstairs. Yes, it is quite ugly, but it is sealed pretty good against the radiator.

I can say it does work, but needs work. Here are the measurements I took.

Flow rate = .7 GPM / 42 GPH
Radiator temp at the bottom = 60F (not sure why its so warm)
Radiator temp at the top = 70F
Ambient = 81F

That gives me about 3500 BTU of output.

Now, the box fan I'm using is pulling 120W of power and the pump is pulling 25W, so combined we have 145W of power used (measured with a kill a watt). 1kWh is roughly 3400 BTU. So, it looks like I have a COP of around 7.0! Not bad at all IMO.

However, I would like to improve the design. Mainly, I'd like to increase the output. I think the first thing to look at is either a new fan, or improving the ridiculously poorly slapped together shroud. There really isn't that much air flowing through the radiator. So, I'm going to take a look at a squirrel cage fan I have off a wood furnace. I'm curious how much power it draws, but I know squirrel cage fans can hold more pressure than axial fans, and that should move more air through the radiator. I also need to deal with the condensation the unit makes.

Suggestions are welcome!

Daox · 08-02-11, 09:22 PM

I just turned the system off for the night. After a few hours of operation, the bottom of the radiator was up to 65F and the top was up to 73F. This brings the BTUs down to ~2800. The water in the sink was up to 66F. I'll take a measurement again before turning it on tomorrow to see how much it cooled off.

AC_Hacker · 08-02-11, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox

I just turned the system off for the night. After a few hours of operation, the bottom of the radiator was up to 65F and the top was up to 73F. This brings the BTUs down to ~2800. The water in the sink was up to 66F. I'll take a measurement again before turning it on tomorrow to see how much it cooled off.

This project is coming right along!

Have you considered some kind of loop field?

Sixty feet of bore-hole would give you about the same cooling as you're getting now.

As I found out, 60 feet of bore-hole is greater than 4 boreholes of 15 foot depth, but I think you get the general idea...

It's amazing what a few friends, a case of beer and a post-hole auger (with extensions) can do.

-AC_Hacker

Daox · 08-03-11, 06:41 AM

I can definitely say its come to mind to drop a few bore holes into the ground. Especially since I do have to add drain tile around the basement's inner wall. This will require busting up the concrete around the perimeter. It wouldn't be THAT much more work to bust up the entire floor I wouldn't think. Then I could drill a few holes. Would I do anything differently since I'm already ~8' below grade?

Anyway, for now, I'm going to keep it simple and see what I can do with it. When I get around to doing the drain tile I'll think about doing it.

I did check the water temperatures this morning before I left for work. For reference, the basement floor is roughly 60F/15.5C, the wall as you go up near the top is around 64F/17.8C. The water in the sink was 64F/17.8C and the water in the barrel was 65F/18.3C at the bottom and 66F/18.9C at the top. I'll measure the temps again when I get home from work to see what they're down to. I did measure the sump water temperature and it is at 59F/15C. Since its been so hot out lately, this has increased the temperature of the basement a decent amount. I had anticipated the basement being down around 55F.

vmike · 08-03-11, 09:02 AM

You might consider making up a plenum to adapt the shape of your box fan to the radiator. You'll get better use of what you have on hand. Cardboard will probably suffice for a prototype.

I've wondered about something similar to this, a water tank buried in the ground.

mike

Daox · 08-03-11, 03:43 PM

Yeah, I'm sure nicer ducting would improve the situation. I'm not sure if I wanna bother or just go to trying out the squirrel cage fan though.

Daox · 08-04-11, 06:35 AM

I took some measurements when I got home last night. The sink was at 61F, about as low as it is going to get I think. The barrel was 60F on the bottom and 64F at the top. So, as we thought, cooling the water in the tanks off may be an issue if used repeatedly. However, I did not need to use it last night.

08-04-11, 10:47 AM

Looking good! Have you thought about using the "coolness" of the floor to chill the water even more before it goes into the radiator?

Piwoslaw · 08-04-11, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angmaar

Looking good! Have you thought about using the "coolness" of the floor to chill the water even more before it goes into the radiator?

Daox mentioned adding a few coils of tubing on the return. Any other ideas?

08-02-11, 11:41 AM	#61
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	A few people have gotten confused, its probably my fault. I started the thread talking about my uncle's house who does have unlimited sump water to use. My setup is kind of a proof of concept of the idea, but I don't have the water he does. I am not sure how long it takes the sump to refill after emptied. Just by me messing around building the stuff the other day its not quick though (unless it rains). The main problem is I don't have proper drain tile around the house. The sump is pretty much just a hole in the ground that water eventually makes its way over to. Its a pending renovation that I haven't gotten to yet. __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by Daox; 08-02-11 at 11:45 AM..

08-02-11, 08:21 PM	#62
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	Well, I got my first results tonight. I only have it hooked up with one barrel atm and am using the downstairs sink instead of the sump. However, it is working. Here is a picture of the setup. Here it is in the basement. Here is the fan setup upstairs. Yes, it is quite ugly, but it is sealed pretty good against the radiator. I can say it does work, but needs work. Here are the measurements I took. Flow rate = .7 GPM / 42 GPH Radiator temp at the bottom = 60F (not sure why its so warm) Radiator temp at the top = 70F Ambient = 81F That gives me about 3500 BTU of output. Now, the box fan I'm using is pulling 120W of power and the pump is pulling 25W, so combined we have 145W of power used (measured with a kill a watt). 1kWh is roughly 3400 BTU. So, it looks like I have a COP of around 7.0! Not bad at all IMO. However, I would like to improve the design. Mainly, I'd like to increase the output. I think the first thing to look at is either a new fan, or improving the ridiculously poorly slapped together shroud. There really isn't that much air flowing through the radiator. So, I'm going to take a look at a squirrel cage fan I have off a wood furnace. I'm curious how much power it draws, but I know squirrel cage fans can hold more pressure than axial fans, and that should move more air through the radiator. I also need to deal with the condensation the unit makes. Suggestions are welcome! Attached Thumbnails __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-02-11, 09:22 PM	#63
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	I just turned the system off for the night. After a few hours of operation, the bottom of the radiator was up to 65F and the top was up to 73F. This brings the BTUs down to ~2800. The water in the sink was up to 66F. I'll take a measurement again before turning it on tomorrow to see how much it cooled off. __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-03-11, 06:41 AM	#65
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	I can definitely say its come to mind to drop a few bore holes into the ground. Especially since I do have to add drain tile around the basement's inner wall. This will require busting up the concrete around the perimeter. It wouldn't be THAT much more work to bust up the entire floor I wouldn't think. Then I could drill a few holes. Would I do anything differently since I'm already ~8' below grade? Anyway, for now, I'm going to keep it simple and see what I can do with it. When I get around to doing the drain tile I'll think about doing it. I did check the water temperatures this morning before I left for work. For reference, the basement floor is roughly 60F/15.5C, the wall as you go up near the top is around 64F/17.8C. The water in the sink was 64F/17.8C and the water in the barrel was 65F/18.3C at the bottom and 66F/18.9C at the top. I'll measure the temps again when I get home from work to see what they're down to. I did measure the sump water temperature and it is at 59F/15C. Since its been so hot out lately, this has increased the temperature of the basement a decent amount. I had anticipated the basement being down around 55F. __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by Daox; 08-03-11 at 08:31 AM..

08-03-11, 09:02 AM	#66
vmike Lurking Renovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Stillwater, OK Posts: 26 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	You might consider making up a plenum to adapt the shape of your box fan to the radiator. You'll get better use of what you have on hand. Cardboard will probably suffice for a prototype. I've wondered about something similar to this, a water tank buried in the ground. mike __________________ I tried to contain myself, but I escaped.

08-03-11, 03:43 PM	#67
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	Yeah, I'm sure nicer ducting would improve the situation. I'm not sure if I wanna bother or just go to trying out the squirrel cage fan though. __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-04-11, 06:35 AM	#68
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	I took some measurements when I got home last night. The sink was at 61F, about as low as it is going to get I think. The barrel was 60F on the bottom and 64F at the top. So, as we thought, cooling the water in the tanks off may be an issue if used repeatedly. However, I did not need to use it last night. __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-04-11, 10:47 AM	#69
Angmaar Guest Posts: n/a	Looking good! Have you thought about using the "coolness" of the floor to chill the water even more before it goes into the radiator?

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