Circulation pump: 2-speed, 4-wire

Piwoslaw · 11-23-12, 01:55 PM

My new condensing boiler has a 2-speed circulation pump and I'd like to be able to control it even when the burner is not running. The pump has 4 wires coming out of it, all of them are the same color so I'll just number them 1-4. I checked that wire #1 is shorted to the neutral input of the power plug, while #4 has the standard live voltage (230V AC) when the pump is on. The other two wires, #2 and #3, both have slightly lower voltage, just under 200V.

Could anyone explain how the 4 wires are used to power the pump? And if and how I can make it run, either at low or high speed?

Mikesolar · 11-29-12, 07:25 PM

Can you tell us what the boiler make and model is? Pump as well.

Piwoslaw · 12-02-12, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikesolar

Can you tell us what the boiler make and model is? Pump as well.

The boiler model is Ariston Clas Premium Evo System.
As for the pump, all I can see on it is a sticker with the following:

Quote:

Intmtsl 15/6.7 HE-2 12w23
No 4521410
I: 62W/0.28A
II: 85W/0.38A

Mikesolar · 12-02-12, 08:16 PM

No name on it......

Piwoslaw · 12-03-12, 12:05 AM

Not that I can see

Mikesolar · 12-03-12, 05:21 AM

Ariston is an Italian boiler IIRC so there is no telling what the make is. That said, 4 wires to any motor shows speed control. power, neutral and two signal wires. Within the enclosure there may not need to be an earth if it is connected through the body. Does the 200v signal ever change to another voltage?

Piwoslaw · 12-03-12, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikesolar

Does the 200v signal ever change to another voltage?

As far as I've noticed, it's the same ~200V on both signal wires whether in high or low speed. I'll try to check it again this evening.

I wonder what would happen if I just shorted the power pin to 230V AC, but not to the two signal pins? I'm kind of afraid of burning something up...

Mikesolar · 12-03-12, 07:22 PM

Do you use the instantaneous DHW function or an external tank? If you use the tankless DHW, the pump automatically goes to high speed when there is a call for hot water, otherwise its speed is determined by the settings for the heat load of the house. I know that my Viessmann boiler runs at about 80% of max partly because of the weather compensation curve that was set. When DHW is called for, up it goes to high speed.

My guess is that if you mess with the pump control you will open a big can of worms because it assumes a certain pump speed to guide the fan speed which guides the gas valve. I cannot see anywhere in the service manual that you can have complete control over the pump. Sorry.

Piwoslaw · 12-04-12, 12:18 AM

The boiler is for central heating only, DHW is from a different source.

The boiler's settings allow the pump to continue running after boiler has been called to shut off (by the room t-stat). The duration can be anything between 0-15 minutes or on all the time. It turns out that 15 minutes is too short in my case, while running it nonstop would be a waste, hence why I'd like to be able to extend the pump's run time. Maybe an option would be to set it to run nonstop and cut the power when it is no longer needed?

EDIT: I checked the voltages between input wires and here is what I got (#1 is neutral, #4 is live 240V AC, #2 & #3 are signal):
Low speed:

1-4 240V
1-2 204V
1-3 204V
2-4 88V
3-4 88V
2-3 0.07V

High speed:

1-4 240V
1-2 275V
1-3 240V
2-4 140V
3-4 0V
2-3 140V

Mikesolar · 12-04-12, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piwoslaw

The boiler is for central heating only, DHW is from a different source.

The boiler's settings allow the pump to continue running after boiler has been called to shut off (by the room t-stat). The duration can be anything between 0-15 minutes or on all the time. It turns out that 15 minutes is too short in my case, while running it nonstop would be a waste, hence why I'd like to be able to extend the pump's run time. Maybe an option would be to set it to run nonstop and cut the power when it is no longer needed?

EDIT: I checked the voltages between input wires and here is what I got (#1 is neutral, #4 is live 240V AC, #2 & #3 are signal):
Low speed:

1-4 240V
1-2 204V
1-3 204V
2-4 88V
3-4 88V
2-3 0.07V

High speed:

1-4 240V
1-2 275V
1-3 240V
2-4 140V
3-4 0V
2-3 140V

I had assumed that you had the boiler with DHW. That is the manual I could download. You have a room t-sat so it is much easier. Many of the boilers run only on the outdoor control and I assume you have an outdoor sensor to determine water temp. If the indoor stat then has only the function of triggering the boiler and starting the pump you could break the hot wire with a t-stat but the boiler may want to run with no pump which isn't good if there is no flow switch on it.

If you set it to run all the time, it should shut down normally on warm weather shut down so summer should not be an issue. You can put a "time delay relay" that will make contact when the t-stat calls but break contact when you choose, to a point.

Time Delay Relays & Timing Modules - Datasheets - TE

There is a good rundown here.

12-03-12, 12:05 AM	#5
Piwoslaw Super Moderator Join Date: May 2009 Location: Warsaw, Poland Posts: 964 Thanks: 189 Thanked 111 Times in 87 Posts	Not that I can see __________________ Ecorenovation - the bottomless piggy bank that tries to tame the energy hog.

12-04-12, 12:18 AM	#9
Piwoslaw Super Moderator Join Date: May 2009 Location: Warsaw, Poland Posts: 964 Thanks: 189 Thanked 111 Times in 87 Posts	The boiler is for central heating only, DHW is from a different source. The boiler's settings allow the pump to continue running after boiler has been called to shut off (by the room t-stat). The duration can be anything between 0-15 minutes or on all the time. It turns out that 15 minutes is too short in my case, while running it nonstop would be a waste, hence why I'd like to be able to extend the pump's run time. Maybe an option would be to set it to run nonstop and cut the power when it is no longer needed? EDIT: I checked the voltages between input wires and here is what I got (#1 is neutral, #4 is live 240V AC, #2 & #3 are signal): Low speed: 1-4 240V 1-2 204V 1-3 204V 2-4 88V 3-4 88V 2-3 0.07V High speed: 1-4 240V 1-2 275V 1-3 240V 2-4 140V 3-4 0V 2-3 140V __________________ Ecorenovation - the bottomless piggy bank that tries to tame the energy hog. Last edited by Piwoslaw; 12-04-12 at 03:03 AM..

11-23-12, 01:55 PM	#1
Piwoslaw Super Moderator Join Date: May 2009 Location: Warsaw, Poland Posts: 964 Thanks: 189 Thanked 111 Times in 87 Posts	Circulation pump: 2-speed, 4-wire My new condensing boiler has a 2-speed circulation pump and I'd like to be able to control it even when the burner is not running. The pump has 4 wires coming out of it, all of them are the same color so I'll just number them 1-4. I checked that wire #1 is shorted to the neutral input of the power plug, while #4 has the standard live voltage (230V AC) when the pump is on. The other two wires, #2 and #3, both have slightly lower voltage, just under 200V. Could anyone explain how the 4 wires are used to power the pump? And if and how I can make it run, either at low or high speed? __________________ Ecorenovation - the bottomless piggy bank that tries to tame the energy hog.

11-29-12, 07:25 PM	#2
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	Can you tell us what the boiler make and model is? Pump as well.

12-02-12, 08:16 PM	#4
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	No name on it......

12-03-12, 05:21 AM	#6
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	Ariston is an Italian boiler IIRC so there is no telling what the make is. That said, 4 wires to any motor shows speed control. power, neutral and two signal wires. Within the enclosure there may not need to be an earth if it is connected through the body. Does the 200v signal ever change to another voltage?

12-03-12, 07:22 PM	#8
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	Do you use the instantaneous DHW function or an external tank? If you use the tankless DHW, the pump automatically goes to high speed when there is a call for hot water, otherwise its speed is determined by the settings for the heat load of the house. I know that my Viessmann boiler runs at about 80% of max partly because of the weather compensation curve that was set. When DHW is called for, up it goes to high speed. My guess is that if you mess with the pump control you will open a big can of worms because it assumes a certain pump speed to guide the fan speed which guides the gas valve. I cannot see anywhere in the service manual that you can have complete control over the pump. Sorry.