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Old 12-10-14, 05:40 PM   #61
Robaroni
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Hi Guys,
Interesting thread!
We live off the REA (rural electric authority) co-op and are at the end of the line in our area of it so when we have storms or high wind our power does go out, maybe two to three times a year but a couple of years ago it was out for a week after a really bad storm. The off grid/intertie system keeps us going but the batteries aren't doing so well these days. They're about 8 or 9 years old Rolls 530S's, 8 batteries into a 48 volt system covering all our important breakers during power failures. I'm thinking of going to sealed batteries (SLA) as they are better as backup only batteries. No water to refill and they can sit with a float charge better than lead/acid batts. Lead/acid batteries are very particular about charging, do it wrong and you sulfate, additives really don't work.
I have a couple of gen sets, the popular Honda EU2000 and a Chinese diesel that I keep trying to get to as it needs better noise damping. Every time I start it the family animals head for the hills!

The first thing you should think about is getting a P3 "Kill A Watt" meter to monitor your appliance usage, this will give you a good idea about how long you'll last and what kind of reserve you'll need.
If you're just backing up your computer or laptop you don't need much backup power. I use only laptops now as they are good enough to do all my CAD/CAM and electronic design software work. The power is in the 20 to 22 watt range so basically it will go for days although I might have to clean the snow off the modules once and awhile!
The other area you can save is lighting and I can get pretty low in that area. I bought 2 watt LED bulbs on eBay. The only place I could find them was China but they are dirt cheap and work well.

Ecopower White E26 E27 Base LED Bulb Globe Light Energy Saving Lamp 2W 3W 5W 7W | eBay

Basically what you want to do is get the main items you need to survive down a low as possible power wise. We use a gas stove and oil heat with wood backup during outages. It's not that I can't run the burner motor its that the circulators along with the blower motor use more power than I want to dedicate to heating so I shut off the oil and use the Tulikivi wood stove with the bake oven which keeps the place toasty except for the basement workshop.
I can run my metal lathes and inverter TIG welder which uses multiple voltage sources from 110 to 220 3 phase if I need them as I designed the system to let me make emergency parts and repairs.
The other thing is how long do want to sustain your autonomy? The longer you want the more it costs.
Rob

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Old 12-10-14, 05:57 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
If you are running off grid solar you have to have a backup generator.
If you run grid tie you have to isolate and basically lock out the solar before powering up with the generator.
Oil pan 4,
I have two systems an intertie and an off grid/intertie that runs my basic power when the grid is down. I don't need a lockout system, when the grid goes down my off grid/ intertie switches from intertie to off grid seamlessly because my isolated basic breakers drop off and that power is picked up instantly by the off grid aspect of the system.

I've checked both systems to make sure I wasn't putting anything out to the grid and it's not, my electric co-op has no problem with the hook up either. This is the best way to do it in my view. The only down side is that my inverters are always powering the isolated breakers either from the grid or the batteries. I have 7.2 Kw of inverters so this isn't a problem but I do lose about 5 to 8% efficiency so I keep this leg as low as possible power wise.
I could hook up a gen set as a third power option but I haven't needed it yet.
Rob
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Old 12-11-14, 07:15 AM   #63
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Funny this comes up. I just went to a seminar designed to prepare seniors for a better long life. A major emphasis was that you need to do as much a possible when you can to avoid issues that you can't deal with later on. Case in point - emergency generators.

I have not had major outages here in the recent past. But central Oklahoma is ripe for power outages (and not from tornado, but from ice storms!). To counter this, I have a 15 kW generator that hooks up to my diesel tractor PTO via the three point hitch (manual transfer switch). This power source, only used twice for 5-6 hours, powers almost all I have and most importantly supplies the water pumps.

I don't have - or anticipate any health issues, but age does have consequences and electric outages ALWAYS seem to come at an inconvenient time. I am doing a lot for a early 60's age guy (sole employee of large livestock farm), but I know that I won't have as much vigor as some of the younger types on this site in later years.

Let me know your thoughts. I want to remain on this large acreage for as long as possible. Want to do it safely and at a reasonable cost. The seminar didn't talk about emergency generators but it got me to thinking . . . .



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Old 12-11-14, 08:13 AM   #64
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How do you like your PTO Generator? What kind is it? I have been thinking about maybe getting one.

More toward your question. ABB has been doing research of using Volt and leaf batteries that are no longer good for car use but have a lot of life left in them for solar storage.
There is going to be I big supply of EV batteries when the current cars get older. I will be looking at adding this to my mix when there is a low cost solution. This may be something for you to look at also.

Mark
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Old 12-11-14, 08:15 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehull View Post
Funny this comes up. I just went to a seminar designed to prepare seniors for a better long life. A major emphasis was that you need to do as much a possible when you can to avoid issues that you can't deal with later on. Case in point - emergency generators.

I have not had major outages here in the recent past. But central Oklahoma is ripe for power outages (and not from tornado, but from ice storms!). To counter this, I have a 15 kW generator that hooks up to my diesel tractor PTO via the three point hitch (manual transfer switch). This power source, only used twice for 5-6 hours, powers almost all I have and most importantly supplies the water pumps.

I don't have - or anticipate any health issues, but age does have consequences and electric outages ALWAYS seem to come at an inconvenient time. I am doing a lot for a early 60's age guy (sole employee of large livestock farm), but I know that I won't have as much vigor as some of the younger types on this site in later years.

Let me know your thoughts. I want to remain on this large acreage for as long as possible. Want to do it safely and at a reasonable cost. The seminar didn't talk about emergency generators but it got me to thinking . . . .



Steve
Hi Steve,
I've been at this awhile now. I was lucky enough to retire at 46 (I'll be 70 next April) and have been figuring out how to live with the least amount of outside needs as possible for all that time.

I think it's more than for emergencies, we live with the idea of keeping our overhead down as much as possible. For example, how often do you go to the super market? We go about once every month and a half to two months. Nancy taught me how to bulk order foods so we have rice, beans and wheat berries (we grind out own flour as we need it, much fresher and better breads). This approach doubles in emergencies and bulk saves a lot of money, although the original outlay is more. We also go to the large farms in the fall and buy things like red peppers that we Suck and Seal and deep freeze and our winter squash which lasts till the spring. We do gardens for our greens, some we deep freeze or can. I sounds like a lot of work but it's not that bad. Anything that requires manpower will cost you in the end a lot more. Buying apples or potatoes that someone puts in a bag as opposed to buying a bushel and storing it in a cold room or root cellar for instance.
The house is net zero, actually we make money selling power, but would do it just for the back up if we had to.

The trick is to keep your overhead as low as possible which, again, doubles in emergencies. Remember, land is power, do you have a stream (stream power is the best alternate source) Good wind? A southern exposure? A pond to raise fish? Good soil? All these things are important and knowing how to access your land and situation is the first step you need to take. You're a farmer? Perfect, you know how to grow things and sell your excess with a road stand or farmer's market.

How's you health? Family genetic problems? If your father had a stroke than eat a healthy diet, low meat and lots of veggies. Also keep moving, the healthiest old timers I know never stopped working and taking walks. You don't have to be a triathlete, in fact it's bad for you, but you do need to keep moving.

Just my take, it has worked for us and outside influences like the rising cost of food haven't affected us as much as the average consumer.

Rob

Last edited by Robaroni; 12-11-14 at 08:18 AM..
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Old 12-11-14, 08:21 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinballlooking View Post
How do you like your PTO Generator? What kind is it? I have been thinking about maybe getting one.

More toward your question. ABB has been doing research of using Volt and leaf batteries that are no longer good for car use but have a lot of life left in them for solar storage.
There is going to be I big supply of EV batteries when the current cars get older. I will be looking at adding this to my mix when there is a low cost solution. This may be something for you to look at also.

Mark
Mark,
I heard about the Volt battery program. Apparently there's a lot left in the batteries after their automobile life is over.
Rob
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Old 12-20-14, 03:56 AM   #67
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'Game we can

From the article:
"The Institute for Energy Research, in its latest report, predicts more than 72 gigawatts of "electrical generating capacity" are going offline. “To put 72 GW in perspective, that is enough electrical generation capacity to reliably power 44.7 million homes – or every home in every state west of the Mississippi River, excluding Texas,” IER report says."

When the power goes out, just play along or make it look like you are effected too.
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Old 12-20-14, 07:25 AM   #68
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'Game we can

From the article:
"The Institute for Energy Research, in its latest report, predicts more than 72 gigawatts of "electrical generating capacity" are going offline. “To put 72 GW in perspective, that is enough electrical generation capacity to reliably power 44.7 million homes – or every home in every state west of the Mississippi River, excluding Texas,” IER report says."

When the power goes out, just play along or make it look like you are effected too.
Or why I never listen to Fox.
The planet has to support life for the next billion years or so, the WHO has reports showing the health consequences and costs of coal pollution, the greatest polluter in the world, by the way. Acid rain has left lakes barren of fish. How do you put a price on that degree of environmental damage? You don't, that affects every living thing on this planet.
The coal industry has been getting away with pollution for decades, now that alternates are making a dent in power the coal industries lobbies don't have the clout they once had. They could have employed scrubbers on their stacks but they chose to pay fines because some bean counter told them it was the cheapest solution.
I have no sympathy for the coal industry. Massey has devastated West Virginia, I' m not crying to see them faultier, it makes more room for clean energy.
Rob
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Old 12-20-14, 11:16 AM   #69
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Lots of good thoughts in this thread. Let me add my two cents.

What I'm hearing so far in this thread is that there's lots of people who would like to be prepared in an emergency situation of no grid power. Those people have different skill sets, but at least on this forum, a fair number of members are pretty handy, and pretty comfortable around working on electricity.

Having electricity is a pretty big deal, because it does effect heating/cooling/water supply/food preservation and preparation/sanitation/communications, just about everything in your home.

It also seems to me that there's sort of three tiers of preparedness for a blackout.
1) We will survive, but minimal comforts. Candles for light, dump water from the aquarium into the toilet to flush it, eat canned-goods cold, emergency communication, etc.
2) Livable, and much more comfortable. Some level of modern lighting, some cooking, better washing/sanitation. Entertainment and decent communication.
3) Pretty much the way you normally live, even with the grid down.

I think most people at least meet tier one. Flashlights, candles, at least a few day's store of food. This is all pretty minimal stuff. However, you might be in an apartment building, for example, in a cold winter with no heat, and no alternative (such as firing up a wood stove.) In a case like that, it makes sense to leave, and go to friends/relatives, etc. who may have power, or at least are in a better situation even without it.

As for tier 3 - Living pretty much as you do when you do have grid power, even without it, that's generally not practical/not affordable for most people. It generally requires expensive, permanently installed equipment, which may or may not be used often at all. But there's an exception to that, more on it later.

For now, lets' look at Tier Two, where I think most of us are talking about in this thread. You are in an emergency situation, you want at least SOME electricity, because it is SO useful for almost everything, it's likely to be a temporary setup, and you want to be prepared, but not spend a fortune doing it.

For some folks, that might mean a generator, for others, some solar panels. Either way, minimizing how much power you use is an advantage, and figuring out how much power you do use (by checking with a Kill-a-watt, etc.) so you get get the right size solar panel or generator is the way to go.

Also, use what you got! If you are an electrician, great - wire something up. If you are a small engine mechanic, you will be far better at servicing a gasoline generator than I ever will. If you aren't particularly handy, maybe just looking around for some sort of a backup power appliance is the right way to go for you. (That computer UPS is looking better and better, isn't it?)

In my case, I'm not afraid to learn new things, I like solar, and I've been working on electric vehicles, so I designed a personal "Smart-Grid", combining a solar panel, a 48V UPS, and an electric motorcycle. In a power outage, I can run over 2000 watts from my motorcycle to my house. With careful use, this could be several days of power for my well pump, refrigerator, a radio, and LED lighting.

I wouldn't be watching television and running central air conditioning, but I'd have everything I need, plus some comforts.

The other thing to think about is WHY are you preparing. Do you really get blackouts commonly in your area? Are you getting ready for "When the $H1T hits the fan"?

And here's another question. What if you put a lot of time and work and money into preparedness and NOTHING happens? Yep, the world keeps on spinning. There's no mega-disasters, we don't run out of coal, the economy is fine. What then?

Here's the way I look at it. I'd like to be prepared for when things go wrong, but I choose to live in a world where the society is improving AND I'M PART OF THAT. For example, I think solar power is a pretty good way of making electricity. It's better than burning coal (at the grid power plant) or gasoline (in a portable generator.) So, I'll start putting up solar panels as I can. I can get at least SOME of my electricity from it, and that means less/fewer coal and nuclear power plants AND in case of emergency I DO have some electricity - enough to more than just barely get by.

Right now, I'm designing a 3KW solar system that will mount on my garage roof. Surprisingly, it should only cost me roughly $2000 out of pocket, and it should be enough to power my house full time. (Sounds crazy? Here's the details...) Economic return on investment could be as little as four years PLUS in emergency, I could have about as much electricity as I want. (I'll be using a grid-tie system, but even these can be functional without the grid, such as Sunny Boy's Secure Power Supply feature, or combining it with an off-grid inverter)

For other folks, you might not have good solar access, or even be interested in it. In that case I actually think that just a plain computer UPS (with a decent-sized battery) is actually a really good simple backup system for a lot of people. It's incredibly easy to use and can simply be purchased, instead of made by scratch by somebody with advanced electric knowledge. That said, it's not going to give you very good run time.

I like the idea of using that picoUPS card, combined with a small solar panel, a large lead-acid battery, a voltmeter and ammeter, all combined into a box on wheels. Somebody who likes to tinker could build a "Bug-IN-BOX" - emergency power in a box. It could meet all of a persons basic electrical needs in an emergency. It would also be great to take camping!

Now back to that Tier Three - Living pretty much the same as with the grid, even when it's not there. Some people already do that. And NO, I'm not thinking of some rich guy with a very large and powerful permanently installed generator who leaves his lights on all the time. The Amish and other traditional groups get by pretty well without using the electrical grid at all! However, they don't have the internet, digital cameras, and a whole lot of other things that I happen to think are pretty cool about the modern world.

There's also the "Off-the-Gridders", who do a GREAT job of minimizing electric use (efficiency!) so they can have affordable full-time solar power. I don't think that's for everyone either, including me. However, they are a great example of greatly reducing electrical use. If all of us on-gridders used substantially less energy, that means fewer polluting power plants AND it's easier for us to provide our own power in an emergency AND it's a step in the right direction towards sustainability. That's a Win-Win-Win for everybody.

Just my two cents…
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Last edited by bennelson; 12-20-14 at 09:45 PM.. Reason: computer locked up. Had to re-write! Also, typos.
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Old 12-20-14, 11:50 AM   #70
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You don't have to listen to fox, but what the IER says it true.
I guess you don't get it.
This is not going to hurt the coal power industry at all. When these power plants are forced shut down the ones that stay running will be able to charge more for the same product, coal prices will drop due to less demand from the shut downs and the coal power producers left running will make more money than ever. The government just legislated a huge profit margin increase for them.
This is going to hurt people and its slated to take effect right before winter of 2015.
The only alternative that has been able to make a dent in coals market share is natural gas, hydraulically fractured natural gas.
I don't know if any one has noticed but hydroelectric powers market share and production has shrank due to increasing demand for drinking water and irrigation, the nuclear power industries production and market share has been shrinking too.
Ridiculously expensive and inconsistent alternative energy sources like solar have struggled to keep their market share with ever increasing demand.
All the geo thermal power that can be used for generation is being used, so that market share is shrinking.

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