EcoRenovator  

Go Back   EcoRenovator > Improvements > Other Improvements
Advanced Search
 


Blog 60+ Home Energy Saving Tips Recent Posts Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-07-12, 09:28 AM   #31
lucerne96
Helper EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: house
Posts: 50
Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Here is another idea for utility scale electrical storage. Problem is it, you need to have the right geology to utilize it. Compressed air energy storage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In my mind, we need almost ALL renewable energy generation & storage schemes to replace our current dependency on fossil fuels; coupled with serious investment in energy efficiency at all levels.

Most people just don't get the enormous & unique energy storage density of gasoline, its ease of transport & how really it is impossible to replace. You can substitute for some things, but the substitutes just aren't as good. Problem is the cheap oil has already been burned....

lucerne96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-12, 01:10 AM   #32
MN Renovator
Less usage=Cheaper bills
 
MN Renovator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 939
Thanks: 41
Thanked 116 Times in 90 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucerne96 View Post
The core problem for electric cars is that the battery technology we have is simply not good enough & not scalable.
That statement is very vague. I disagree with that. We have the technology to move a car over 350 miles on a charge. We also have a manufacturer that released an electric car that could go over 100 miles over a decade ago and another manufacturer that has a car that can go 244 miles on a charge that was released 4 years ago. Same company producing a vehicle that holds 7 people with space both in the usual rear area as well as the front where the engine usually would be that can go a similar distance, and also sedan that can go 300 miles.

You'll need to define your core problem a little better as you seem to be missing out on what battery technology currently exists, lead-acid isn't the only battery that has seen an electric car.
MN Renovator is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MN Renovator For This Useful Post:
gasstingy (05-08-12)
Old 05-08-12, 09:31 AM   #33
lucerne96
Helper EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: house
Posts: 50
Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Any battery that must be made from materials that are not easily available in huge quantities to me is problematic & not scaleable. Lithium, Nickle & batteries using REE's fit into this category in my book. Isn't this the problem we have gotten ourselves into with oil? The jury is still out on Nano-carbon batteries when I last checked.

I am certain we would not have invaded Iraq if their primary export were wooden shoes or cheese.

When you actually cost out (life cycle cost) current (pun intended) electric cars, they are expensive. You need to buy a new battery every 4 to 7 years @ 12K to 15K a pop!

So, if you own your electric car for 12 years it will cost

40K+12K+12K = ~64K for car & batteries; not counting charging & maintenance.

I would rather live in a walkable community where I don't need a car. It is only an expense.
lucerne96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-12, 09:44 AM   #34
gasstingy
Journeyman EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Arab, AL
Posts: 491
Thanks: 109
Thanked 49 Times in 43 Posts
Default

I see some logic in what you are saying here. However, the RAV 4 EV's from over a decade ago are still going on their original battery packs. And, as best as I can tell, most manufacturers are giving a warranty of 8 years or 100k miles.

So for a Leaf, there's $40,000 initial cost-$7500 tax credit+{hard to fill in the blank on battery replacement cost when I can't see the future and don't know if I'd even need a new battery}. What I do know is, If I drove my wifes car the same 186k miles at todays price of gasoline, I'd spend more than $29k just for gasoline. I'm going to assume the electricity from my solar array costs less than the periodic oil and filter changes, so the math to buy an EV works out ok for me.
gasstingy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-12, 11:06 AM   #35
lucerne96
Helper EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: house
Posts: 50
Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Default

I really hate quoting anything form Fox News, however...

Ford's electric car battery pack costs $12,000-$15,000 | Fox News

Today, I walked the 3 blocks to work, my daughter the 1 block to school. Gas use = zero; and I didn't need a GOV subsidy.

I apologize in advance if I seem harsh, I do not mean to be. However, I think that we tend to look for little fixes to reduce our dependency on energy when the elephant in the room is totally overlooked -- a unsustainable living arrangement.

Cities/ small town communities became popular for a reason. We have to remember why and work to get back there. We need to live in walkable communities where we can go to school, work & shop w/o the tyranny of the automobile.

I lived in a City in Holland that banned cars in the 1970's. everyone walks, takes public transit or rides bikes -- it's great. No one is fat & unhealthy, & the quality of the air is superior. You meet interesting people on your walkabouts (AKA good looking babes).

We can do it to, if we wish to. We are amer-I-Can's.
lucerne96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-12, 12:53 AM   #36
MN Renovator
Less usage=Cheaper bills
 
MN Renovator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 939
Thanks: 41
Thanked 116 Times in 90 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucerne96 View Post
Any battery that must be made from materials that are not easily available in huge quantities to me is problematic & not scaleable. Lithium, Nickle & batteries using REE's fit into this category in my book. Isn't this the problem we have gotten ourselves into with oil? The jury is still out on Nano-carbon batteries when I last checked.

I am certain we would not have invaded Iraq if their primary export were wooden shoes or cheese.

When you actually cost out (life cycle cost) current (pun intended) electric cars, they are expensive. You need to buy a new battery every 4 to 7 years @ 12K to 15K a pop!

So, if you own your electric car for 12 years it will cost

40K+12K+12K = ~64K for car & batteries; not counting charging & maintenance.

I would rather live in a walkable community where I don't need a car. It is only an expense.
Maintenance is minimal in comparison to a car with an engine that requires oil changes, spark plugs, belts, etc that keep you replacing parts and stopping at a gas station. Charging is far less than the cost of gasoline. $12k-15k might be prices paid to a dealer to replace the battery but I don't buy your 4-7 years talk. Especially when Nissan gives the Leaf an 8 year 100k warranty. I'd take a guess that they would want a majority of their battery packs to last beyond that warranty to avoid the cost of paying for replacements so I'm pretty sure we can expect a majority of those cars getting 100k or more out of their battery.

I'm not seeing the rare element issue at all, lithium isn't a rare metal and is typically less than a small single digit percentage of the battery by weight. Lithium batteries aren't toxic either and Nickel chemistries have left out the cadmium for over a decade now so they aren't really more toxic than a steel car body at this point and there are plenty of companies ready to recycle these too.

If it makes any difference the car that I'm converting next year will cost me a sum of $15 to $20k total including the car, battery, controller, charger, wiring, etc. all combined for a total range over 100 miles. 100 miles at my electric rate and expected driving efficiency for a car that gets me 70-80 mpg on my commute today will be about $1.75 in electricity. My 750 mile tank that normally is 10 gallons and cost me $3.59/gallon yesterday cost me 2.74 times the cost of driving on what I predict the electric cost will be.

Sure, I can walk or bike but I'd prefer not to during brutal weather such as severe rain, snow, sleet, and other issues we come across in my climate so at least some point I'll be getting into a car. Where I live, the city is pretty much a high crime slum with low property values and people who you don't want to be your neighbors. Same goes for most of the US and I like living in the states. I'll find the best way to avoid sending my money to countries who hate their customers, to do that I'll be driving an electric car. It's true that I'll be buying batteries from China but they don't want to kill me like everyone who is trying to sell me oil while expressing their anger at the same time. The only truly expensive part will probably be if/when I install solar on my roof to balance all of my electricity usage out.
MN Renovator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-12, 07:42 AM   #37
Xringer
Lex Parsimoniae
 
Xringer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Woburn, MA
Posts: 4,918
Thanks: 114
Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Back about 1967, my ship stopped in Rotterdam and we walked north about a mile before hitting farm land.
That was the only time I saw the kids who worked in the fields, with wooden shoes.

The city looked idea for bikes and mopeds. But, places are much larger here.
If I wanted to go into Boston on my bike, it's possible, but it's dangerous.
The bike trail ends half way there. Plus, it would be about 15 miles.
30 miles round trip with some good hills too.
I know people my age that do it, but they are in excellent shape.

The next time my wife and I go into Beantown, we just might be driving
a new 60 mpg car..
2012 Toyota Prius C Review - Watch CNET's Video Review
The EPA mpg rating is a little low..

Anyways, it's a car made for the city..
__________________
My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits
EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..
Xringer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-12, 08:33 AM   #38
lucerne96
Helper EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: house
Posts: 50
Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MN Renovator View Post
Maintenance is minimal in comparison to a car with an engine that requires oil changes, spark plugs, belts, etc that keep you replacing parts and stopping at a gas station. Charging is far less than the cost of gasoline. $12k-15k might be prices paid to a dealer to replace the battery but I don't buy your 4-7 years talk. Especially when Nissan gives the Leaf an 8 year 100k warranty. I'd take a guess that they would want a majority of their battery packs to last beyond that warranty to avoid the cost of paying for replacements so I'm pretty sure we can expect a majority of those cars getting 100k or more out of their battery.

I'm not seeing the rare element issue at all, lithium isn't a rare metal and is typically less than a small single digit percentage of the battery by weight. Lithium batteries aren't toxic either and Nickel chemistries have left out the cadmium for over a decade now so they aren't really more toxic than a steel car body at this point and there are plenty of companies ready to recycle these too.

If it makes any difference the car that I'm converting next year will cost me a sum of $15 to $20k total including the car, battery, controller, charger, wiring, etc. all combined for a total range over 100 miles. 100 miles at my electric rate and expected driving efficiency for a car that gets me 70-80 mpg on my commute today will be about $1.75 in electricity. My 750 mile tank that normally is 10 gallons and cost me $3.59/gallon yesterday cost me 2.74 times the cost of driving on what I predict the electric cost will be.

Sure, I can walk or bike but I'd prefer not to during brutal weather such as severe rain, snow, sleet, and other issues we come across in my climate so at least some point I'll be getting into a car. Where I live, the city is pretty much a high crime slum with low property values and people who you don't want to be your neighbors. Same goes for most of the US and I like living in the states. I'll find the best way to avoid sending my money to countries who hate their customers, to do that I'll be driving an electric car. It's true that I'll be buying batteries from China but they don't want to kill me like everyone who is trying to sell me oil while expressing their anger at the same time. The only truly expensive part will probably be if/when I install solar on my roof to balance all of my electricity usage out.
The National Academy of Science studied plug in hybrid electric cars National-Academies.org | Newsroom and these findings Costs to manufacture plug-in hybrid electric vehicles in 2010 are estimated to be as much as $18,000 more than for an equivalent conventional vehicle. Although a mile driven on electricity is cheaper than one driven on gasoline, it will likely take several decades before the upfront costs decline enough to be offset by lifetime fuel savings.

According to page 1 of Garrett's HANDBOOK OF LITHIUM & NATURAL CALCIUM CHLORIDE (2004) Lithium is a comparatively rare element, although it is found in many rocks and some brines, but always in very low concentrations. The average amount in the earth’s upper crust has been estimated to be about 20 ppm by Vine (1980), although others have quoted values as low as 7 ppm (Bach et al., 1967; igneous rocks 6 ppm, sedimentary rocks 11.5 ppm) and as high as 60 ppm (Deberitz, 1993; 27th in rank of elemental abundance). Even with these small numbers, however, there are a fairly large number of both lithium mineral and brine deposits, but only comparatively a few of them are of actual or potential commercial value. Many are very small, others are too low in grade or located in remote areas, or too expensive to recover and process.

My core contention still remains that electric (and nat Gas) vehicles are not scaleable. With 1 billion vehicles already on the roads, and annual global sales above 35 Million units, we have neither the battery materials, electric grids, nor a network of charging stations equipped to handle the situation. Remember, it has taken 90 years to build out the network of gas stations we how have in the USA. Most of all we don't have the capital to afford it.
Also, what do you think would be the affect of the price of Electricity if the GOV mandated all new cars must be electric? Where would all the new generation come from? The transmission infrastructure? What would it cost?
Who is paying for it? Remember a tax credit to me is higher taxes for someone else. There is no FREE LUNCH.

Recently, I took the time to figure out the current investment here in the USA in gasoline powered engines. The number I came up with was $13 Trillion. Where would the money come from to change over from Gasoline to Electric or Nat Gas?

As we have run out of inexpensive oil, and the cost of change over to some other energy system for transportation fuel is beyond our capabilities; the obvious conclusion is that out lifestyles will change to meet the realities imposed upon us. The rich will always have access to personal transportation, but the average person will increasingly find it more difficult to afford. check out the Hirsch Report, done for the Department of Energy describing what it will take to transition away from gasoline. Summary here: http://www.acus.org/docs/051007-Hirs...Production.pdf
It findings & implications are life changing.

A more elegant solution is to do what our grandparents & great grandparents did who lived before the Automobile age -- live where you work.
You will find your transportation costs drop dramatically when you don't have to pay for a car. Here in Philadelphia, we have good mass transit & car rental programs, like ZIP car, for when you need to go somewhere off the mass transit grid.

I & my family's daily commute costs remain free everyday. It might only be inclement weather 3-4 days a month. We can handle that.
lucerne96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-12, 09:16 AM   #39
lucerne96
Helper EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: house
Posts: 50
Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
Back about 1967, my ship stopped in Rotterdam and we walked north about a mile before hitting farm land.
That was the only time I saw the kids who worked in the fields, with wooden shoes.
I lived in Groningen, in the north. Holland, like most of W Europe has builtout an extensive network of high speed rail to get from city to city. Within the city is standard mass transit (buses, trollies), plus many cities have free bikes.

In Groningen, about every block is a bike stand with 3 speed 36" wheel ugly grey bikes. When you want to ride, just grab one, ride to your destination & put it in the bike stand at your destination. It is that simple. Yes sometimes idiots throw them in the canal, but that is a rarity.

It is a totally different experience when you live in a place with no cars. You children can play in the street without fear of getting run over. The bike lanes are separated from pedestrian sidewalks which are separated from the few access streets where autos are permitted. They sometimes have "jersey" barriers segregating the bike traffic from the pedestrians.

You don't feel afraid to bike because the bikes & cars & people are always separated. Here are some pix 15 Things I Loved about Living & Bicycling in Groningen (the Netherlands) +25 Pictures

All it takes is a little positive planning.
lucerne96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-12, 09:41 PM   #40
randen
Uber EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada
Posts: 657
Thanks: 9
Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts
Default

Gasstingy Wrote;
I see some logic in what you are saying here. However, the RAV 4 EV's from over a decade ago are still going on their original battery packs. And, as best as I can tell, most manufacturers are giving a warranty of 8 years or 100k miles.

My recent acquistion a 1998 Chev S-10 EV. that has the famous Ovonic Nimh. battery pack from the EV 1 (who killed the electric car doc.) has been charged and load tested and is still viable. The batteries are marked 2000. so that makes them 12 yrs old. The new lithium chemistries are showing even better promise.

It seems strange the automotive powerplant has been through so much development over the last 100 yrs. and the lowely battery even though its shown some great improvments and promise still gets shelved and by comparison little development.

For me I can't wait to get the little truck on the road and just like how the Geo-thermal and solar heating helped me with saving some bucks and keeping us comfortable. I hope the little electric truck will do the same.

Randen

randen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Ad Management by RedTyger
Inactive Reminders By Icora Web Design