A7 AirTap install (ASHP hot water heater) - Page 32

Xringer · 07-15-13, 07:04 PM

Quote:

The only issue I have with a dehumidifier is that they actually warm the area around them...so if the airtap cools and dehumidifies...that would be great. I'll have to look into it a little more. I have a 40 gallon powervent NG heater now which works fine, but have no idea what the costs would be between the 2 (operating)... and if the airtap would work with the current heater or would i need a separate tank...

The problem I have with the A7 is all the cold air! In the wintertime,
it gets really cold down there in that corner. (dehumidifies too).
But, warmth coming up from the slab gets the basement back to normal in short order.

Company Products :: Cee-Environmental
Check out the AirVent™ about half way down the page.
I read about one owner that used that duct to cool off his kitchen during the summer. Looks like a simple duct project for a DIYer.

The last gas DHW heater I looked at, had a big blower mounted on top.
No room up there for installing an A7.

If you are going to invest in an A7, and don't have a regular electric
DHW heater, it might be wise to buy one. That's what I did.
Hopefully it will last a long time. The new GE tanks seem well made.

ctgottapee · 07-15-13, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer

The problem I have with the A7 is all the cold air! In the wintertime,
it gets really cold down there in that corner. (dehumidifies too).
But, warmth coming up from the slab gets the basement back to normal in short order.

Company Products :: Cee-Environmental
Check out the AirVent™ about half way down the page.
I read about one owner that used that duct to cool off his kitchen during the summer. Looks like a simple duct project for a DIYer.

The last gas DHW heater I looked at, had a big blower mounted on top.
No room up there for installing an A7.

If you are going to invest in an A7, and don't have a regular electric
DHW heater, it might be wise to buy one. That's what I did.
Hopefully it will last a long time. The new GE tanks seem well made.

I'm planning on just using some ductboard, flexible duct, and metallic foil tape. The vent is on top so gravity will keep whatever you put on top of it in place. A little leakage is ok as you don't want to stress the A7's output fan with high resistance as it wasn't made for that.

The biggest issue in retrofitting is controlling the original tanks thermostat and heating system, otherwise the A7 will never get to run. It's much easier to do with electric tanks.
You need a mix of letting the water get cold and giving the A7 ample time to run, but still having enough hot water to meet demand as it varies.

I've found with my electric hot water heater, I can almost use it as a demand system as long as there is a little bit of buffered heat up top, and the delivery is well insulated. I have a switch in the bathroom that turns on the top element for heating only during use (shower). The bottom element runs on a timer a night when peak electric rates are low, which heats the tank. I plan to use the A7 as a replacement for the bottom element. The two element system and electrical nature make retrofitting the A7 simpler than natural gas.

Electric doesn't have any obstructions on top of the tank either.

MN Renovator · 07-16-13, 06:10 AM

Obligitory safety note: As long as the switch isn't your typical 15 or 20 amp switch. If it is a 240v 20 amp switch with a 4500 watt element, I'd be sure the breaker behind it matches.

berniebenz · 07-16-13, 06:12 PM

Background:
My 18 yr old 45 gal HTP Voyager DHWH (94%, condensing) also heats the house in-floor radiant system, via an internal heat exchanger. Wanting to use the Voyager’s electronic set point and differential control and display to also control the A7, and a 7 day electronic timer to also inhibit the A7 during peak and mid peak TOU (Time Of Use) grid rates, I had a hacker’s dream! The plan was to defeat the propane firing in flavor of the A7 during off peak periods, excepting during winter high heat demands, then fire both under Voyager call for heat.

The timer that I selected is a wall mount GE #15312 "SunSmart” digital timer (designed primarily to control outdoor lighting), $10 or $12 on eBay. It is a 7 day circular timer having up to 7 “programs” (ON/OFF cycles) fully selectable within the 7 day period. Its output is a 20A SPST relay driven by 18V DC logic.

The Voyager’s ignition sequence can be suppressed by interrupting the 120VAC to the forced draft blower, via its 18VDC driver relay. Careful not to overload the just adequate logic and power supplies for these relays, I used low power reed relays to duplicate their functions at their 18VDC logic levels.
(Maagnicraft W172DIP-8, SPDT, $2. ea eBay.) 24V coils but they operate just fine on 18V.

Cut the ground driver PC board traces to each relay, thus with reed contacts, controlled the A7 from the Voyager call for heat and the Voyager firing from the timer OFF periods. A manual toggle switch allows both to be fired together during cold periods.

Energy source costs in my area currently are as follows:
Propane: $0.10/kwh
Nearby NG: $0.023/kwh But 10 miles away!
Elec peak $0.39/kwh
Elec off peak $.064kwh

berniebenz · 07-29-13, 03:43 PM

Wow! My post sure shut down this thread. Sorry guys!

Xringer · 07-29-13, 05:17 PM

Sorry, but I got busy around the 6th and have just finished up my deck project this week.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/conser...lular-pvc.html

I kinda understand what you've done with your A7,
and I'm wondering if we are going to get to see some pictures of your hardware, and diagrams of the work you've done.

I'm not sure anyone will attempt to duplicate your work, but the info might
be helpful to some of us, who want to control how much the A7 runs..

I've been lucky with mine and got my timer set up so the A7 can assist
the PV arrays, keeping us supplied with hot water, while using the least amount of power off the grid..

Since it's near the end of the month, I took a quick look at the Kil-a-Watt
this afternoon, and it looks like about 0.4 kWh per day is what we will have used this month.

Someday soon, I'll get up the energy to automate some of the hot water
and basement ventilation equipment. I have the hardware, I just need
to attack it with the soldering iron, and re-engage the brain..

ctgottapee · 07-30-13, 03:33 AM

heh, your post got me wondering how much energy the timer uses

My clamp on meter shows 000 before my timer when the electric hot water heater isn't doing anything, so i guess it's within the meters error, adjusted by what i'm guessing is a horrible power factor.

I'm getting a PF corrected meter later this week so maybe i'll see diff numbers. My minisplit's PF is crazy so it was needed for accurate billed power usage.
The current meter would show 80watts usage phantom, however checking it against the utility's meter on the house, it wasn't moving at all.

"The timer that I selected is a wall mount GE #15312 "SunSmart” digital timer (designed primarily to control outdoor lighting), $10 or $12 on eBay. It is a 7 day circular timer having up to 7 “programs” (ON/OFF cycles) fully selectable within the 7 day period. Its output is a 20A SPST relay driven by 18V DC logic."

Xringer · 07-30-13, 09:53 AM

Oh, the things people worry about..

These clamp-on meters and Kil-a-Watt meters are so inaccurate at low power levels, the are nearly useless!

I have these little 0.1w LED night lights plugged in around the house.
Only one has a motion sensor, the other 3 stay on 24/7 !!
My guess about the power use of my Timex TX12626X timer,
would be less than one of those 24/7 LED night lights..

What can cancel out that waste? Using LED lamps all over the house!

LEds Video by Xringer | Photobucket

The way I look at it, if it's so low it's almost impossible to measure,
it's not worth worrying about.

I do measure my Sanyo systems. Both power feeds have TED clamps.
I see the real-time power use (combined in one number), 24-7.
Right now, it's 10 watts. But it says that 0.4 kWh have been used since midnight.?.
The reason? Both Sanyos have crankcase heaters.
It got cool enough early this morning, one or both heaters came on for a while..

Got below 60F !!

If I had opened the breakers, I could have saved 6 or 7 cents during the last 10 hours..

If I had done the right thing, that money would have paid for a month of
running both my Timex timers!

It's futile to try to save the pennies, just one look at the meter on laundry day tells me that.
Just run that dryer for a few less minutes a week, and that cancels out all the vampire loads for a month!

Edit:
Life is too short to sweat the microscopically small stuff..

ctgottapee · 07-30-13, 12:03 PM

i get ya, but half the battle is knowing the battle.
i don't assume or always trust what others say

My other reason is i'm using solar during the day to negate the base load to zero, and i can't shoot under it as i'm not on real net metering (not offered here) so it could possibly trigger a tampering error on the meter if i'm sending a lot of power back. the meter also measures backfeed as usage, so i'd be paying to send excess power back.

Speaking of requests...
I'd like to see pictures of how the one user mounted their A7 when taping into the drain port; seems you'd have to rig some sort of stand for it to rest on.

Xringer · 08-01-13, 10:27 AM

The A7 is working to assist the solar PV DHW heating this month..

The A7 used 13 kWh during July. 13/31=0.433 kWh per day. (On average).

kWh from the log:
6-29-13 100
7-15-13 107
08-1-13 113

Our NStar power usage seems to be semi-on-demand.
When it's not sunny the A7 doesn't run, until we start using DHW..
(Most of the time).

Plus, we are still using a timer on the A7, only turning on it's power between 2PM and 8PM.

By not allowing the A7 to run in the mornings, we give the PV a chance to put some BTUhs into the tank.
Once I automate the A7, I'll allow it to run in the AM, but only IF the PV isn't bringing in some good BTUhs..

~~~~~~~~~~~~

8-15-2013 update: PV Still working
kWh 115 today. During the last 15 days use is 2 kWh, or 0.133 kWh per day.
I guess the PV needed an ASHP assist when it was rainy. Not sure, since we didn't hear it running.

07-16-13, 06:12 PM	#314
berniebenz Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Gardnerville, NV Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Integrating A7 control into propane DHWH with TOU electric rate schedule. Background: My 18 yr old 45 gal HTP Voyager DHWH (94%, condensing) also heats the house in-floor radiant system, via an internal heat exchanger. Wanting to use the Voyager’s electronic set point and differential control and display to also control the A7, and a 7 day electronic timer to also inhibit the A7 during peak and mid peak TOU (Time Of Use) grid rates, I had a hacker’s dream! The plan was to defeat the propane firing in flavor of the A7 during off peak periods, excepting during winter high heat demands, then fire both under Voyager call for heat. The timer that I selected is a wall mount GE #15312 "SunSmart” digital timer (designed primarily to control outdoor lighting), $10 or $12 on eBay. It is a 7 day circular timer having up to 7 “programs” (ON/OFF cycles) fully selectable within the 7 day period. Its output is a 20A SPST relay driven by 18V DC logic. The Voyager’s ignition sequence can be suppressed by interrupting the 120VAC to the forced draft blower, via its 18VDC driver relay. Careful not to overload the just adequate logic and power supplies for these relays, I used low power reed relays to duplicate their functions at their 18VDC logic levels. (Maagnicraft W172DIP-8, SPDT, $2. ea eBay.) 24V coils but they operate just fine on 18V. Cut the ground driver PC board traces to each relay, thus with reed contacts, controlled the A7 from the Voyager call for heat and the Voyager firing from the timer OFF periods. A manual toggle switch allows both to be fired together during cold periods. Energy source costs in my area currently are as follows: Propane: $0.10/kwh Nearby NG: $0.023/kwh But 10 miles away! Elec peak $0.39/kwh Elec off peak $.064kwh Last edited by Daox; 07-17-13 at 09:27 AM.. Reason: fix error in title

07-29-13, 05:17 PM	#316
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Sorry, but I got busy around the 6th and have just finished up my deck project this week. http://ecorenovator.org/forum/conser...lular-pvc.html I kinda understand what you've done with your A7, and I'm wondering if we are going to get to see some pictures of your hardware, and diagrams of the work you've done. I'm not sure anyone will attempt to duplicate your work, but the info might be helpful to some of us, who want to control how much the A7 runs.. I've been lucky with mine and got my timer set up so the A7 can assist the PV arrays, keeping us supplied with hot water, while using the least amount of power off the grid.. Since it's near the end of the month, I took a quick look at the Kil-a-Watt this afternoon, and it looks like about 0.4 kWh per day is what we will have used this month. Someday soon, I'll get up the energy to automate some of the hot water and basement ventilation equipment. I have the hardware, I just need to attack it with the soldering iron, and re-engage the brain.. __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

07-30-13, 09:53 AM	#318
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Oh, the things people worry about.. These clamp-on meters and Kil-a-Watt meters are so inaccurate at low power levels, the are nearly useless! I have these little 0.1w LED night lights plugged in around the house. Only one has a motion sensor, the other 3 stay on 24/7 !! My guess about the power use of my Timex TX12626X timer, would be less than one of those 24/7 LED night lights.. What can cancel out that waste? Using LED lamps all over the house! LEds Video by Xringer \| Photobucket The way I look at it, if it's so low it's almost impossible to measure, it's not worth worrying about. I do measure my Sanyo systems. Both power feeds have TED clamps. I see the real-time power use (combined in one number), 24-7. Right now, it's 10 watts. But it says that 0.4 kWh have been used since midnight.?. The reason? Both Sanyos have crankcase heaters. It got cool enough early this morning, one or both heaters came on for a while.. Got below 60F !! If I had opened the breakers, I could have saved 6 or 7 cents during the last 10 hours.. If I had done the right thing, that money would have paid for a month of running both my Timex timers! It's futile to try to save the pennies, just one look at the meter on laundry day tells me that. Just run that dryer for a few less minutes a week, and that cancels out all the vampire loads for a month! Edit: Life is too short to sweat the microscopically small stuff.. Attached Thumbnails __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less.. Last edited by Xringer; 07-30-13 at 09:55 AM.. Reason: Adding a small quote.

08-01-13, 10:27 AM	#320
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	A7 not working very hard in July.. The A7 is working to assist the solar PV DHW heating this month.. The A7 used 13 kWh during July. 13/31=0.433 kWh per day. (On average). kWh from the log: 6-29-13 100 7-15-13 107 08-1-13 113 Our NStar power usage seems to be semi-on-demand. When it's not sunny the A7 doesn't run, until we start using DHW.. (Most of the time). Plus, we are still using a timer on the A7, only turning on it's power between 2PM and 8PM. By not allowing the A7 to run in the mornings, we give the PV a chance to put some BTUhs into the tank. Once I automate the A7, I'll allow it to run in the AM, but only IF the PV isn't bringing in some good BTUhs.. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ 8-15-2013 update: PV Still working kWh 115 today. During the last 15 days use is 2 kWh, or 0.133 kWh per day. I guess the PV needed an ASHP assist when it was rainy. Not sure, since we didn't hear it running. __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less.. Last edited by Xringer; 08-15-13 at 11:45 AM.. Reason: Update: 8-15-2013

07-16-13, 06:10 AM	#313
MN Renovator Less usage=Cheaper bills Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 939 Thanks: 41 Thanked 116 Times in 90 Posts	Obligitory safety note: As long as the switch isn't your typical 15 or 20 amp switch. If it is a 240v 20 amp switch with a 4500 watt element, I'd be sure the breaker behind it matches.

07-29-13, 03:43 PM	#315
berniebenz Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Gardnerville, NV Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Wow! My post sure shut down this thread. Sorry guys!

07-30-13, 03:33 AM	#317
ctgottapee Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: May 2013 Location: Central IL Posts: 97 Thanks: 34 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	heh, your post got me wondering how much energy the timer uses My clamp on meter shows 000 before my timer when the electric hot water heater isn't doing anything, so i guess it's within the meters error, adjusted by what i'm guessing is a horrible power factor. I'm getting a PF corrected meter later this week so maybe i'll see diff numbers. My minisplit's PF is crazy so it was needed for accurate billed power usage. The current meter would show 80watts usage phantom, however checking it against the utility's meter on the house, it wasn't moving at all. "The timer that I selected is a wall mount GE #15312 "SunSmart” digital timer (designed primarily to control outdoor lighting), $10 or $12 on eBay. It is a 7 day circular timer having up to 7 “programs” (ON/OFF cycles) fully selectable within the 7 day period. Its output is a 20A SPST relay driven by 18V DC logic."

07-30-13, 12:03 PM	#319
ctgottapee Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: May 2013 Location: Central IL Posts: 97 Thanks: 34 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	i get ya, but half the battle is knowing the battle. i don't assume or always trust what others say My other reason is i'm using solar during the day to negate the base load to zero, and i can't shoot under it as i'm not on real net metering (not offered here) so it could possibly trigger a tampering error on the meter if i'm sending a lot of power back. the meter also measures backfeed as usage, so i'd be paying to send excess power back. Speaking of requests... I'd like to see pictures of how the one user mounted their A7 when taping into the drain port; seems you'd have to rig some sort of stand for it to rest on.