Why You Should Not Use Induction Cooking Technology - Page 3

stevehull · 04-04-13, 07:07 AM

Guys - a few comments,

First, I like induction cooking. My son has one and has his entire pot/pan collection is based around it. For me, the installation cost was steep and my wife FAR prefers to be able to "see" the heat she is cooking with (propane). She is also very attached to her pricey copper bottom Revere pans (that do not work with induction). After 35 years of marital bliss, I am not going to rock that boat

!

Secondly, we can't see the facial expressions, tone or other highly important clues when we read these posts. Some estimate that at least half of face to face communication is based on these clues as well as posture etc. So let's not confuse directness with bullying.

If AC starts a thread, I can well understand that he wants to keep it in line and not diverted all over creation like many chat sites do. I may disagree with some of his perspectives, but who cares - they are HIS perspectives. He has dinged me several times and I just keep on going along with my perspectives.

But he offers very good insights as well.

Yes, I prefer perhaps a "softer approach/rebuke", but if everyone was in the kum by ahh land, then how boring would that be?

Lastly, many people with an engineering approach (many of us here) are not the best at soft speaking and listening. They have their mission, have the data and are driven to the end (damn the torpedos, full speed ahead)!

Let's not overinterpret what we read for malignant behaviors based at any of us.

SO THERE AND TAKE THAT

!!

Steve
ha!

ELGo · 04-22-13, 09:58 AM

Peak power draws of induction cookers are no higher than resistive cookers, so I also agree that even widespread penetration of induction cooking into the US will not lead to a need for more peak capacity. Too bad, really, since it would be one more reason to retire coal plants and replace with solar PV or thermal

In fact, I'll guess that peak power on the grid in the US can be summed up in two letters: AC

The fellow who was worried about induction cooking can look to Europe or Japan for data, since induction cooking is widespread in those countries.

Exeric · 04-22-13, 11:59 AM

Well, let me add a few words. No one is disputing AC Hackers contributions here, most especially me. My biggest objection is that his pronouncements become conventional wisdom without serious examination. He has contributed his share of misinformation along with the good information. But humans being what we are there is a crowd mentality that finds the need to declare things all one way or all the other way. People here can't seem to hold the two thoughts in their head that AC often is on the wrong side of things. He may be correct about induction cooking, I don't know, but really he has not disputed my argument here except by appealing to conventional wisdom. That's not a good counterargument and is way too easy a way out. But people here love that because it already agrees with the majority predisposition. One could easily argue that places where induction cooking is prominent already have an electrical infrastructure buildout to allow for it. I could be wrong, but where is the single individual here willing to entertain the arguments needed to prove me wrong?

Here is a concrete example where AC has got it wrong or influenced people here to accept his wisdom with no, nada, zilch objections. I don't want to drag other people into this argument so I won't mention the other person by name, though most know who I'm refering to. The question was from a fellow Californian about the use of air expulsion ventilation. I argued that in California we really don't need to install HRVs because the high cost of an HRV, the low amount of energy that is reclaimed due to low inside/outside temperature differential, and the much higher electrical usage of an HRV over a fan makes fans much more economical here.

I happen to know that not a single person on this site agreed with me or spoke up for this view even though I'm right that HRVs don't make sense where there this fellow Californian lives. This group think is bullcrap and I know that AC knows better. But he stays notoriously silent because he has promoted the indiscriminate use of HRVs. It wouldn't be hard for him to say his solution doesn't work in every case but I think he just like being the leader of the big old band. I just think he promotes group-think on this site since so many people follow his utterances, or lack of utterances during the times that he needs to speak up and knows better. He just took the easy way out and stood silent when it was convenient for him. SO yes, I resent his bullying ways and the indiscriminate followers here. If you want to be the sheep with AC as the shephard then fine. No one is disputing that he offers a lot of good information. But why in hell are people so cowardly and sheep like on questions like the climate usage of HRVs.

SO AC, why didn't you speak up for me then when I was right. Especially since you know how much influence you have here. And why do you assume I'm wrong now about induction heating. The principle involved, not neccessarily the numbers, is valid. Why should I believe the principle of peak energy usage for utilities doesn't change just because you find food cooked with an inductive range is "delicious".

ELGo · 04-22-13, 12:21 PM

ExEric, I for one will not spend time or effort to disprove your hypothesis with data because it does not pass the sniff test of *maybe* being correct. You are labeling 'conventional wisdom' what I consider simple reasoning.

I also have to admit that your demand that others disprove your notion over-the-top. It is your claim -- YOU should back it up with data.

I suggested you look into the grids of Europe and Japan if you are hell-bent on pursuing your notion. Just evaluate peak-capacity/average-capacity-factor.

Disclaimer: I do not have induction cooking, and I doubt I will be buying it anytime soon. Well, unless my wife positively asserts that the egg I cook for her most mornings using a microwave are a failure

Exeric · 04-22-13, 12:26 PM

I'd say you should improve your sniffer.

AC_Hacker · 04-22-13, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exeric

...conventional wisdom...
...where is the single individual here willing to entertain the arguments...
...don't want to drag other people into this argument...
...This group think is bullcrap and I know...
...he stays notoriously silent...
...promoted the indiscriminate use of HRVs...
...he promotes group-think on this site...
...He just took the easy way out and stood silent when...
...If you want to be the sheep with AC as the shephard...
...speak up for me then when I was right...
...why do you assume I'm wrong now about induction heating...
...food cooked with an inductive range is "delicious"...

Exeric,

There is a possibility that you are losing perspective on this issue.

Your own human energy might be better spent, by actually working on physical things, like finding ways to reduce commercially provided energy consumption in your life and implementing your findings, and reporting on your results.

But if you want to persist in the direction of debating the potential dangers to the national electrical infrastructure, due to induction cooking, your arguments would be more persuasive and also more interesting if they were based on your own original experimental research.

In the meantime, enjoy the wonderful springtime weather...

-AC

Exeric · 04-22-13, 02:35 PM

AC, well I guess when one doesn't want to address the actual arguments I brought up then accusing the person bringing up those arguments of losing perspective works. But it isn't factual or correct.

And yes, I'm enjoying the wonderful weather while addressing these issues simultanteously. Holding two things in ones consciousness at the same time is a beautiful thing. You should try it.

Still waiting...

Fornax · 04-22-13, 04:41 PM

V = I * R and P = V * I.
For the grid there is no difference between induction and resistive cooking.

The grid delivers joules per second, be it for induction cooking, halogen lighting, air conditioning, microwave ovens, or whatever (welding torch is fine too).

I didn't scroll up to look up names but whoever started whatever discussion it doesn't apply. The grid is designed to carry the load.

hamsterpower · 04-23-13, 04:09 AM

Argument against, as I understand it "Induction cooking, if widely (universily) accepted, will exceed the capacity of the electric grid."

Counter arguments- Most people I know eat out. Resturaunts mostly cook with gas, I highly doubt that will change. Cooking will never happen ALL at ONE TIME. Dinner hour is spread from 3:30PM - 11PM per timezone and beyond in different timezones. Induction burners cook REALLY FAST. This spreeads out where the power is going. Industry is the biggest power user and ramps down mid afternoon (before most cooking). Need I go on?

ELGo · 04-23-13, 10:21 AM

People cooking with gas are not going to overnight throw their stoves away and go induction. In fact, I'll bet the over riding majority are quite satisfied with what they have. Induction appeals to people who currently cook with resistive electric, so the question boils down to this: if overnight all the homes on electric resistive switched to induction, what additional burden would be placed on the grid ? The answer simply is NONE, because induction stoves do not have a higher peak or sustained or average draw more than resistive stoves.

End of story.

It is amusing that the fellow worried about this non-event is up in arms over an induction plate here and there, but happily ignores the rapid introduction of AC throughout the US.

04-04-13, 07:07 AM	#21
stevehull Steve Hull Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: hilly, tree covered Arcadia, OK USA Posts: 826 Thanks: 241 Thanked 165 Times in 123 Posts	Guys - a few comments, First, I like induction cooking. My son has one and has his entire pot/pan collection is based around it. For me, the installation cost was steep and my wife FAR prefers to be able to "see" the heat she is cooking with (propane). She is also very attached to her pricey copper bottom Revere pans (that do not work with induction). After 35 years of marital bliss, I am not going to rock that boat ! Secondly, we can't see the facial expressions, tone or other highly important clues when we read these posts. Some estimate that at least half of face to face communication is based on these clues as well as posture etc. So let's not confuse directness with bullying. If AC starts a thread, I can well understand that he wants to keep it in line and not diverted all over creation like many chat sites do. I may disagree with some of his perspectives, but who cares - they are HIS perspectives. He has dinged me several times and I just keep on going along with my perspectives. But he offers very good insights as well. Yes, I prefer perhaps a "softer approach/rebuke", but if everyone was in the kum by ahh land, then how boring would that be? Lastly, many people with an engineering approach (many of us here) are not the best at soft speaking and listening. They have their mission, have the data and are driven to the end (damn the torpedos, full speed ahead)! Let's not overinterpret what we read for malignant behaviors based at any of us. SO THERE AND TAKE THAT !! Steve ha! __________________ consulting on geothermal heating/cooling & rational energy use since 1990

04-22-13, 12:21 PM	#24
ELGo Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 66 Thanks: 4 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	ExEric, I for one will not spend time or effort to disprove your hypothesis with data because it does not pass the sniff test of maybe being correct. You are labeling 'conventional wisdom' what I consider simple reasoning. I also have to admit that your demand that others disprove your notion over-the-top. It is your claim -- YOU should back it up with data. I suggested you look into the grids of Europe and Japan if you are hell-bent on pursuing your notion. Just evaluate peak-capacity/average-capacity-factor. Disclaimer: I do not have induction cooking, and I doubt I will be buying it anytime soon. Well, unless my wife positively asserts that the egg I cook for her most mornings using a microwave are a failure Last edited by ELGo; 04-22-13 at 12:27 PM..

04-22-13, 04:41 PM	#28
Fornax Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Beuningen (Gld), the Netherlands Posts: 64 Thanks: 4 Thanked 19 Times in 16 Posts	V = I * R and P = V * I. For the grid there is no difference between induction and resistive cooking. The grid delivers joules per second, be it for induction cooking, halogen lighting, air conditioning, microwave ovens, or whatever (welding torch is fine too). I didn't scroll up to look up names but whoever started whatever discussion it doesn't apply. The grid is designed to carry the load. Last edited by Fornax; 04-23-13 at 12:55 AM.. Reason: Typo and formula.

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04-22-13, 09:58 AM	#22
ELGo Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 66 Thanks: 4 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Peak power draws of induction cookers are no higher than resistive cookers, so I also agree that even widespread penetration of induction cooking into the US will not lead to a need for more peak capacity. Too bad, really, since it would be one more reason to retire coal plants and replace with solar PV or thermal In fact, I'll guess that peak power on the grid in the US can be summed up in two letters: AC The fellow who was worried about induction cooking can look to Europe or Japan for data, since induction cooking is widespread in those countries.

04-22-13, 11:59 AM	#23
Exeric Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: California Posts: 274 Thanks: 19 Thanked 37 Times in 28 Posts	Well, let me add a few words. No one is disputing AC Hackers contributions here, most especially me. My biggest objection is that his pronouncements become conventional wisdom without serious examination. He has contributed his share of misinformation along with the good information. But humans being what we are there is a crowd mentality that finds the need to declare things all one way or all the other way. People here can't seem to hold the two thoughts in their head that AC often is on the wrong side of things. He may be correct about induction cooking, I don't know, but really he has not disputed my argument here except by appealing to conventional wisdom. That's not a good counterargument and is way too easy a way out. But people here love that because it already agrees with the majority predisposition. One could easily argue that places where induction cooking is prominent already have an electrical infrastructure buildout to allow for it. I could be wrong, but where is the single individual here willing to entertain the arguments needed to prove me wrong? Here is a concrete example where AC has got it wrong or influenced people here to accept his wisdom with no, nada, zilch objections. I don't want to drag other people into this argument so I won't mention the other person by name, though most know who I'm refering to. The question was from a fellow Californian about the use of air expulsion ventilation. I argued that in California we really don't need to install HRVs because the high cost of an HRV, the low amount of energy that is reclaimed due to low inside/outside temperature differential, and the much higher electrical usage of an HRV over a fan makes fans much more economical here. I happen to know that not a single person on this site agreed with me or spoke up for this view even though I'm right that HRVs don't make sense where there this fellow Californian lives. This group think is bullcrap and I know that AC knows better. But he stays notoriously silent because he has promoted the indiscriminate use of HRVs. It wouldn't be hard for him to say his solution doesn't work in every case but I think he just like being the leader of the big old band. I just think he promotes group-think on this site since so many people follow his utterances, or lack of utterances during the times that he needs to speak up and knows better. He just took the easy way out and stood silent when it was convenient for him. SO yes, I resent his bullying ways and the indiscriminate followers here. If you want to be the sheep with AC as the shephard then fine. No one is disputing that he offers a lot of good information. But why in hell are people so cowardly and sheep like on questions like the climate usage of HRVs. SO AC, why didn't you speak up for me then when I was right. Especially since you know how much influence you have here. And why do you assume I'm wrong now about induction heating. The principle involved, not neccessarily the numbers, is valid. Why should I believe the principle of peak energy usage for utilities doesn't change just because you find food cooked with an inductive range is "delicious".

04-22-13, 12:26 PM	#25
Exeric Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: California Posts: 274 Thanks: 19 Thanked 37 Times in 28 Posts	I'd say you should improve your sniffer.

04-22-13, 02:35 PM	#27
Exeric Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: California Posts: 274 Thanks: 19 Thanked 37 Times in 28 Posts	AC, well I guess when one doesn't want to address the actual arguments I brought up then accusing the person bringing up those arguments of losing perspective works. But it isn't factual or correct. And yes, I'm enjoying the wonderful weather while addressing these issues simultanteously. Holding two things in ones consciousness at the same time is a beautiful thing. You should try it. Still waiting...

04-23-13, 04:09 AM	#29
hamsterpower Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 142 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts	Argument against, as I understand it "Induction cooking, if widely (universily) accepted, will exceed the capacity of the electric grid." Counter arguments- Most people I know eat out. Resturaunts mostly cook with gas, I highly doubt that will change. Cooking will never happen ALL at ONE TIME. Dinner hour is spread from 3:30PM - 11PM per timezone and beyond in different timezones. Induction burners cook REALLY FAST. This spreeads out where the power is going. Industry is the biggest power user and ramps down mid afternoon (before most cooking). Need I go on?

04-23-13, 10:21 AM	#30
ELGo Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 66 Thanks: 4 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	People cooking with gas are not going to overnight throw their stoves away and go induction. In fact, I'll bet the over riding majority are quite satisfied with what they have. Induction appeals to people who currently cook with resistive electric, so the question boils down to this: if overnight all the homes on electric resistive switched to induction, what additional burden would be placed on the grid ? The answer simply is NONE, because induction stoves do not have a higher peak or sustained or average draw more than resistive stoves. End of story. It is amusing that the fellow worried about this non-event is up in arms over an induction plate here and there, but happily ignores the rapid introduction of AC throughout the US.