New guy in East TX - Page 2

dablack · 06-19-13, 07:08 AM

Thanks for the thorough responces everyone. I really appreciate it. I battled and battled with the central air vs minisplit about six month ago. I still think out it. If I had more time to build or a little more money the minisplits would be the way to go. With my new brother in law offering to install central for me, that is the way I'm going to go. All the vents and unit will be in conditioned space so that is a big boost right there.

Basically, we are paying rent, a land note and building. We have to get the house done so we can stop paying rent. I'm going to let my BIL install the central air.

thanks
Austin

Xringer · 06-19-13, 11:38 AM

Sounds like you are all set for HVAC. What's the details on the extra wiring you did to prep for PV installation?
Have you looked at the Enphase micro-inverter stuff?

dablack · 06-19-13, 03:59 PM

I haven't started on wiring yet. I'm working on putting on the boards and radiant barrier for the metal roof. Once that is done, I will finish plumbing (about half done right now), and then start electrical.

I think what I'm going to do is put an extra plug behind the main and 2nd fridge and behind the chest freezer. That will only be three plugs and I will send them to a seperate breaker box. Then once we get settled in, I can start on a solar system to power that seperate breaker box. Once the system is big enough, I can start adding other lines. So, we will start off by powering all our refrigeration by solar and then grow from there. In the winter we don't turn on the heat much right now is a very leaky house, so I'm betting we will turn it on even less in the new house. I'm hoping somewhere in the future, to be only solar in the winter. We will have to see. Either way, when the power goes out, we won't lose all our put away food.

Austin

Xringer · 06-19-13, 05:09 PM

That sounds like you are going to wire up for an Off-the-Grid system.
Have you considered a plain grid-tie system?
When you aren't using all your PV power, it's 'stored' on the grid.
You can get it back at night. The power company is your battery bank..

I'm asking because if you want a solar back-up system to save your refrigerated food items,
it should be able to work when sunshine isn't available.
That kind of system is more costly and a lot less efficient.

If I used my little solar back-up AC system to power my 7000 BTUh hotwater heater, it could to the job just fine.
But, at 10AM when it's sunny and I'm not using hotwater and the battery bank is at full charge,
my fancy 500w solar tracking array is not doing anything.. Wasted power..
(Well, it was wasted before I discovered a way get some use out of the left-over DC power).

With a MPPT grid tied system, your PV delivers all the power it can harvest from the sun. Minimum waste.

If grid failures are rare, you might want to consider using a simple (cheap)
gasoline or Propane generator to provide AC power during a black out.

I've had a gasoline gen (Subaru) for about five years and so far it's never been used (just tested in the summers).
It's 5kW and could run my whole house for days on a few cans of gas.
It's the perfect back-up for running my Sanyos.. If needed.

The cost of having a long life Propane back-up system isn't very high these days.
Check them out at Home Depot. They use BBQ tanks.

dablack · 06-20-13, 07:13 AM

My real problem right now is that I have no idea how often we have power outages. We lived down by NASA (right beside Galveston Bay) for 10 years and it seemed like every other year a hurricane would come and knock out power for a week or so. That was living right beside NASA! Now the property is at the end of the line. Our power poles come from a branch, cross two or three properties and then end with us. There are trees everywhere. I'm thinking power losses might be common but I don't know. I'm going to have to catch some of the neighbors and ask.

Anyway, yes, I was planning on a off-grid system. I haven't looked into it very far but I thought a grid tied system shuts down when the grid is down. Is there a way to get a grid tied system that has batteries? I get what you are saying about how after your batteries are full, then you aren't really doing anything. With that being said, with six people in the house, it will be SOME time before any solar system we put in, will be a waste. I'm sure we will use EVERY watt.

thanks
Austin

MN Renovator · 06-20-13, 07:44 AM

Yes, you can get grid-tied systems with batteries that are used as a backup. They are basically always held full and then if the power goes out you are on battery backup. I personally think that the cost of a generator to keep your critical loads powered(furnace, refrigerator, cell phone charging, some lights) with a smallish generator is the way to go due to the low cost. In my area the power is consistent, I think I've only come across two power outages over the last 6 years and neither of them lasted long enough for me to bother powering up my generator to keep the refrigerator cool enough. About 15 years ago we had a summer power outage on one of the hottest days of summer where a transformer blew and power went out for almost the entire period of daylight, we fired up the generator ran the fridge and attic fan and when the refrigerator shut down, we shut down the generator and fired it up an hour later for another cycle. So spending money on batteries for a need of once every 5 years or so seems a bit expensive and getting a quiet efficient generator with an economizer is probably the best bet. I personally just got a Harbor Freight 3000 watt generator for $240 back when they allowed 20% coupons to be used on generators and I run it in once in the spring and again in the fall to make sure everything is in check. Can't buy backup batteries that cheap. I could technically go without the generator other than freezing winter weather if I allow my food to go bad in the refrigerator and most homeowners insurance covers the cost of refrigerator contents due to the failure of grid power.

Xringer · 06-20-13, 09:05 AM

Yeah, for the price of one set of cheap RV-Marine batteries, I could buy a nice propane generator.
For the price of a good set of batteries, I'll bet that I could buy the generator,
weeks worth of propane and a storage shed for the tanks..

My back-up power DIY project is only a few years old..
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/solar-...r-project.html
And now it looks like my batteries are already going south.
I may have had the voltage set a little too high or made some other battery related mistake..

Our grid is so reliable these days, I've never had to use backup power.
Looking at the cost of high grade solar batteries,
has me kicking myself for going this route.

Might be good for a Zombie apocalypse, but in real life.. Kinda a waste..

Before replacing the batt bank, I'm going to price a Propane rig..
and maybe sell that Subaru to some sucker..

I don't like keeping gasoline too long, it ages, even with STA-BIL.

dablack · 06-20-13, 09:21 AM

MN Ren,

You are 100% correct. What I haven't really explained is that, while I don't know the history of power outages at our property and while so far in our nations history the power grid does tend to come back quickly when knocked out, I believe that this will not always be the case.
Even with natural disasters, you can't really hope there will be plenty of gas. Hurricane IKE was only on land for about 15 miles before it hit my old house. Luckily, it was a direct hit and so we didn't have nearly as much storm surge as others. There was no power and no fuel for cars or generators for about a week. This was just a hurricane. Now, I'm more concerned with a longer lasting problem. One of my reasons for moving to a less populated area is that I do believe a storm is coming. A storm that won't pass quickly. That is the storm that I would like to be ready for.

That is why I was some solar power. Not for lights or to power a TV or even AC. I want solar to make sure I can store enough food to last for a long time. We will garden, have an orchard and have livestock. We store food by canning, but I also like having a freezer and a frig. You can put a lot of goat milk in a fridge!

So, for me it is more about knowing for sure that I can produce food and keep it for the long haul.

Yes, getting off "coal power" and saving a little money on each electric bill is fun, but that is a bonus and not the reason I'm here.

That is also why I'm building my house where it will stay "cool" in the TX heat. Most houses built today turn into an oven when they lose power. If I do it right, our house won't be much above ambient and will hold onto cooler night air well into mid day. These are the things I worry about.

thanks
Austin

Xringer · 06-20-13, 10:06 AM

I had family that got hit by IKE and it was about as bad as it gets.
No power at all, for a long time. The pictures tell the tale.
The short - but eventful - life of Ike - The Big Picture - Boston.com

A few years ago, we had a big ice storm up here and the power loss for us was nothing, compared to NH.
Just 50 miles north of us, there were homes without power for a full month..

Anyways, there are new combo solar systems you can buy now.
They are grid tied and will also stand-alone. Here's some reading for you.
Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems

MN Renovator · 06-20-13, 11:14 AM

I understand where you are coming from now. If you are in a hurricane area, that could really prove useful. You'll need to size your pack for the duration that you might expect to have reduced input to the solar system. Usually off-grid setups size the battery for a week. In my area we don't really have natural disasters other than tornadoes and with those you can drive out far enough to obtain fuel since tornadoes don't usually wipe out that large of an areas power. So for me if I figure for a battery system I'd size mine for a the coldest night for furnace use(3kwh) and factor refrigerator use(1kwh) and run the generator during the day to charge up the pack. I cycle my gas before it gets old. I also remove and replace the generators gas before it gets run during my seasonal checks. On another note, I'm converting one of my cars to be an electric car and if I decide I could try to find an inverter to run off the pack and that would give me the about 15kwh after subtracting the non-usable capacity from the pack and inefficiencies of the inverter. I'm sure I could get four days from that in the absolute worst conditions(-20f with a moderate indoor temp which it never gets that cold for that long and this isn't factoring sun reducing the heating load) and in the summer could run the fridge for 2 weeks.

06-19-13, 11:38 AM	#12
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Sounds like you are all set for HVAC. What's the details on the extra wiring you did to prep for PV installation? Have you looked at the Enphase micro-inverter stuff? __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

06-19-13, 05:09 PM	#14
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	That sounds like you are going to wire up for an Off-the-Grid system. Have you considered a plain grid-tie system? When you aren't using all your PV power, it's 'stored' on the grid. You can get it back at night. The power company is your battery bank.. I'm asking because if you want a solar back-up system to save your refrigerated food items, it should be able to work when sunshine isn't available. That kind of system is more costly and a lot less efficient. If I used my little solar back-up AC system to power my 7000 BTUh hotwater heater, it could to the job just fine. But, at 10AM when it's sunny and I'm not using hotwater and the battery bank is at full charge, my fancy 500w solar tracking array is not doing anything.. Wasted power.. (Well, it was wasted before I discovered a way get some use out of the left-over DC power). With a MPPT grid tied system, your PV delivers all the power it can harvest from the sun. Minimum waste. If grid failures are rare, you might want to consider using a simple (cheap) gasoline or Propane generator to provide AC power during a black out. I've had a gasoline gen (Subaru) for about five years and so far it's never been used (just tested in the summers). It's 5kW and could run my whole house for days on a few cans of gas. It's the perfect back-up for running my Sanyos.. If needed. The cost of having a long life Propane back-up system isn't very high these days. Check them out at Home Depot. They use BBQ tanks. __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

06-20-13, 09:05 AM	#17
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Yeah, for the price of one set of cheap RV-Marine batteries, I could buy a nice propane generator. For the price of a good set of batteries, I'll bet that I could buy the generator, weeks worth of propane and a storage shed for the tanks.. My back-up power DIY project is only a few years old.. http://ecorenovator.org/forum/solar-...r-project.html And now it looks like my batteries are already going south. I may have had the voltage set a little too high or made some other battery related mistake.. Our grid is so reliable these days, I've never had to use backup power. Looking at the cost of high grade solar batteries, has me kicking myself for going this route. Might be good for a Zombie apocalypse, but in real life.. Kinda a waste.. Before replacing the batt bank, I'm going to price a Propane rig.. and maybe sell that Subaru to some sucker.. I don't like keeping gasoline too long, it ages, even with STA-BIL. __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

06-20-13, 10:06 AM	#19
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	I had family that got hit by IKE and it was about as bad as it gets. No power at all, for a long time. The pictures tell the tale. The short - but eventful - life of Ike - The Big Picture - Boston.com A few years ago, we had a big ice storm up here and the power loss for us was nothing, compared to NH. Just 50 miles north of us, there were homes without power for a full month.. Anyways, there are new combo solar systems you can buy now. They are grid tied and will also stand-alone. Here's some reading for you. Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

06-19-13, 07:08 AM	#11
dablack Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 13 Times in 6 Posts	Thanks for the thorough responces everyone. I really appreciate it. I battled and battled with the central air vs minisplit about six month ago. I still think out it. If I had more time to build or a little more money the minisplits would be the way to go. With my new brother in law offering to install central for me, that is the way I'm going to go. All the vents and unit will be in conditioned space so that is a big boost right there. Basically, we are paying rent, a land note and building. We have to get the house done so we can stop paying rent. I'm going to let my BIL install the central air. thanks Austin

06-19-13, 03:59 PM	#13
dablack Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 13 Times in 6 Posts	I haven't started on wiring yet. I'm working on putting on the boards and radiant barrier for the metal roof. Once that is done, I will finish plumbing (about half done right now), and then start electrical. I think what I'm going to do is put an extra plug behind the main and 2nd fridge and behind the chest freezer. That will only be three plugs and I will send them to a seperate breaker box. Then once we get settled in, I can start on a solar system to power that seperate breaker box. Once the system is big enough, I can start adding other lines. So, we will start off by powering all our refrigeration by solar and then grow from there. In the winter we don't turn on the heat much right now is a very leaky house, so I'm betting we will turn it on even less in the new house. I'm hoping somewhere in the future, to be only solar in the winter. We will have to see. Either way, when the power goes out, we won't lose all our put away food. Austin

06-20-13, 07:13 AM	#15
dablack Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 13 Times in 6 Posts	My real problem right now is that I have no idea how often we have power outages. We lived down by NASA (right beside Galveston Bay) for 10 years and it seemed like every other year a hurricane would come and knock out power for a week or so. That was living right beside NASA! Now the property is at the end of the line. Our power poles come from a branch, cross two or three properties and then end with us. There are trees everywhere. I'm thinking power losses might be common but I don't know. I'm going to have to catch some of the neighbors and ask. Anyway, yes, I was planning on a off-grid system. I haven't looked into it very far but I thought a grid tied system shuts down when the grid is down. Is there a way to get a grid tied system that has batteries? I get what you are saying about how after your batteries are full, then you aren't really doing anything. With that being said, with six people in the house, it will be SOME time before any solar system we put in, will be a waste. I'm sure we will use EVERY watt. thanks Austin

06-20-13, 07:44 AM	#16
MN Renovator Less usage=Cheaper bills Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 939 Thanks: 41 Thanked 116 Times in 90 Posts	Yes, you can get grid-tied systems with batteries that are used as a backup. They are basically always held full and then if the power goes out you are on battery backup. I personally think that the cost of a generator to keep your critical loads powered(furnace, refrigerator, cell phone charging, some lights) with a smallish generator is the way to go due to the low cost. In my area the power is consistent, I think I've only come across two power outages over the last 6 years and neither of them lasted long enough for me to bother powering up my generator to keep the refrigerator cool enough. About 15 years ago we had a summer power outage on one of the hottest days of summer where a transformer blew and power went out for almost the entire period of daylight, we fired up the generator ran the fridge and attic fan and when the refrigerator shut down, we shut down the generator and fired it up an hour later for another cycle. So spending money on batteries for a need of once every 5 years or so seems a bit expensive and getting a quiet efficient generator with an economizer is probably the best bet. I personally just got a Harbor Freight 3000 watt generator for $240 back when they allowed 20% coupons to be used on generators and I run it in once in the spring and again in the fall to make sure everything is in check. Can't buy backup batteries that cheap. I could technically go without the generator other than freezing winter weather if I allow my food to go bad in the refrigerator and most homeowners insurance covers the cost of refrigerator contents due to the failure of grid power.

06-20-13, 09:21 AM	#18
dablack Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 13 Times in 6 Posts	MN Ren, You are 100% correct. What I haven't really explained is that, while I don't know the history of power outages at our property and while so far in our nations history the power grid does tend to come back quickly when knocked out, I believe that this will not always be the case. Even with natural disasters, you can't really hope there will be plenty of gas. Hurricane IKE was only on land for about 15 miles before it hit my old house. Luckily, it was a direct hit and so we didn't have nearly as much storm surge as others. There was no power and no fuel for cars or generators for about a week. This was just a hurricane. Now, I'm more concerned with a longer lasting problem. One of my reasons for moving to a less populated area is that I do believe a storm is coming. A storm that won't pass quickly. That is the storm that I would like to be ready for. That is why I was some solar power. Not for lights or to power a TV or even AC. I want solar to make sure I can store enough food to last for a long time. We will garden, have an orchard and have livestock. We store food by canning, but I also like having a freezer and a frig. You can put a lot of goat milk in a fridge! So, for me it is more about knowing for sure that I can produce food and keep it for the long haul. Yes, getting off "coal power" and saving a little money on each electric bill is fun, but that is a bonus and not the reason I'm here. That is also why I'm building my house where it will stay "cool" in the TX heat. Most houses built today turn into an oven when they lose power. If I do it right, our house won't be much above ambient and will hold onto cooler night air well into mid day. These are the things I worry about. thanks Austin

06-20-13, 11:14 AM	#20
MN Renovator Less usage=Cheaper bills Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 939 Thanks: 41 Thanked 116 Times in 90 Posts	I understand where you are coming from now. If you are in a hurricane area, that could really prove useful. You'll need to size your pack for the duration that you might expect to have reduced input to the solar system. Usually off-grid setups size the battery for a week. In my area we don't really have natural disasters other than tornadoes and with those you can drive out far enough to obtain fuel since tornadoes don't usually wipe out that large of an areas power. So for me if I figure for a battery system I'd size mine for a the coldest night for furnace use(3kwh) and factor refrigerator use(1kwh) and run the generator during the day to charge up the pack. I cycle my gas before it gets old. I also remove and replace the generators gas before it gets run during my seasonal checks. On another note, I'm converting one of my cars to be an electric car and if I decide I could try to find an inverter to run off the pack and that would give me the about 15kwh after subtracting the non-usable capacity from the pack and inefficiencies of the inverter. I'm sure I could get four days from that in the absolute worst conditions(-20f with a moderate indoor temp which it never gets that cold for that long and this isn't factoring sun reducing the heating load) and in the summer could run the fridge for 2 weeks.