EcoRenovator  

Go Back   EcoRenovator > Improvements > Geothermal & Heat Pumps
Advanced Search
 


Blog Register 60+ Home Energy Saving Tips Recent Posts Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-19-13, 11:57 PM   #11
dremd
Need More Eco
 
dremd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scott, La
Posts: 169
Thanks: 2
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Send a message via AIM to dremd
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff5may View Post
Dremd,

Another thing to consider doing with the smaller units is using them in "reverse polish" mode. I have found that the heat exchangers in the smaller units can only be pushed so hard before they become the bottleneck in your quest for high efficiency.

The outdoor heat exchangers in these units are designed for massively more airflow and exchange area than the indoor coils. By installing the unit backwards in the window, reversing the connections at the compressor,
I had such thoughts before, figured I was loosing it, and went on my way, I may not have been. That said, reversed window units are a bit to polish for me.

Thanks for thoughts for sure, and for making me feel a bit less wacko.

dremd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-13, 12:24 AM   #12
dremd
Need More Eco
 
dremd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scott, La
Posts: 169
Thanks: 2
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Send a message via AIM to dremd
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
dremd,

It sure would be useful if you could get some loops into the Bayou water. I certainly understand why you can't, but it sure would be useful.

So, as I understand it, you're 15 feet above and 20 feet back from the bayou, right?
That's about right +-3 feet, and when the water is up, I'm 8 feet above water level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
So, your water table is 15 feet beneath your camp. Other than getting loops into the bayou, your answer is 15 feet below your feet.
It's typically a tad deeper than that, but not much, that said, the well draws water not that much better than the bayou..

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
Too deep to trench, but a rotary water drill just might work really fine.
So horizontal drilling? I'm not following you here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
You ought to do a little asking around about your soil conditions near your lodge. Ask well drillers, ask GSHP drillers (for use in A/C).
On that end of our geographical change ( I live where the west begins (yes seriously)20 miles from house is the swamp)wells are easy to drill (not that they are difficult on the prairie that I live on) and the water table isn't nearly as drawn down by crawfish/ rice ponds (they use surface water in the swamp).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
All of the drilling problems that I had personally, were due to rocks that were left after prehistoric recessions of ancient glaciers. In fact the other folks that I know in this area, who had problems drilling, had those problems because of fist-sized to football-sized rocks and cobbles. I just bet that it has been many, many, many millennia, since Louisiana has seen any glaciers.
It has been a while, the majority of our landscape has been brought south by the Mississippi, in fact my camp would be about 5 miles away from where the Mississippi wants to be, and would be if it wasn't for the control structures at the split with the atchafalaya (where the Mississippi wants to be bypassing Baton Rouge and New Orleans and leaving their shipping industries high and dry.
That said, drillers start seeing large solids around 500-1000 feet and that is typically coral (I've got a nice piece of coral on my shelf from 2,900 feet below a few miles from my house). The majority of the well drillers I know drill for oil, not water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
I have heard of very easy drilling done by some of our Southern Brothers, who encountered nothing more serious than sand and clay... so before you pull the plug on the idea of drilling or trenching, tap into the knowledge of some of your local drillers.
Definitely way easier to drill here than anyplace with rocks, only soil issue at camp is that it doubles as an adhesive building up around your boots when wet, locally referred to as Blackjack.


They may tell you that it is truly unreasonable to DIY something like that, and that you need Very Big Power to punch holes in the ground. If that is the case, then don't proceed down that road.
[/QUOTE]
I have known people to DIY vertical wells near camp, apparently not terrible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
But if you are not up against cobbles or bedrock... you could have a very good chance of success.

It's amazing how, once you start asking around, local lore on this issue starts to come out of the woodwork.

Some closed loops sunk down into the water table a pretty good way would sink a lot of heat, and you wouldn't need to worry about anything ever silting up or getting clogged by some kind of green swamp growth.
That's what drew me to the marine style heat exchangers, relative impunity from swamp growth, and limited digging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
But then there's that bayou... how deep do they dredge it???
Around 20 feet water depth, current bottom about 3-5 foot water depth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
I don't know if you have gone over any of Brad_C's posts on EcoRenovator, but he is doing a DIY open loop A/C, in Perth, Australia. He isn't on a bayou, but he is utilizing flowing ground water, and he has had to deal with filtering out stuff that could clog his HXs (yes, he is using a huge brazed plate). Brad_C is Brad_C, and he seems to be pretty much unstoppable. But for you, a mortal, you are right, an open loop system is not the place for brazed plate HXs.
I have not run across any of his threads, I'll look him up soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
Acuario, over in Spain did some interesting work with homemade HXs... In fact I think he really started a DIY tube-in-tube trend.
I found him after starting this thread, cool stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
Then it looks to me like randen, up near Toronto, Canada, took Acuario's idea of how to DIY a tube-in-tube and made it simpler and even better.

So, you can build your own tube-in-tube that wouldn't be prone to clogging.

Hope I've been able to get your gray matter bubbling just a little bit here...

And yeah, those marine units do look pretty nice, if you have the cash... but they still need water.
I don't really have the cash for the marine units, if they were absolutley perfect, I'd consider dropping the coin, but for less than ideal, they are out of my price range.

[QUOTE=AC_Hacker;29459
Good Luck!

-AC[/QUOTE]
Much awesomeness, thank you very much!
dremd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-13, 01:07 AM   #13
dremd
Need More Eco
 
dremd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scott, La
Posts: 169
Thanks: 2
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Send a message via AIM to dremd
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
I woke up this morning thinking about your bayou camp cooling problem...

I realized that there are quite a few issues that I had assumed about your camp, that I really shouldn't have.



[*]What is your inclination to DIY something? Some of the folks here on this forum absolutely revel in digging into the smallest detail and practically creating something out of nothing... and they either have the skills on tap, or are not inhibited in the least about acquiring the required new skills. But, in all honesty, you may not be one of these people. You might instead be interested in a turn-key solution that you can purchase, have it installed, and be done with it.
While turn key would be nice and all, it is simply well outside of my price range, both in expenditure and payback period.

I'm not entirely sure how to describe my self, my skills, nor what I do, but I'll give it a shot by listing some of the things I've done in the recent past with little outside help.
1) built 3d printer(s) (well, this was 2009)
2) built fiberglass mold/ production setup/shop. Built lots of 4ft fiddles
3) setup chineeseum lathe to make 3d printer parts, ended up making lots of other stuff as well (I really like this darn thing).
4) built 4x4 CNC plasma cutter (most impressive tool in the shop) to add to fairly extensive metalworking shop (MIG welder, handheld plasma, brake, sheer, anvil, cones, swede blocks,casting setup, presses, etc, etc. )
5) in progress of swapping a Diesel motor + 6 speed manual trans in to a turbo gasoline automatic VW wagon.
6) built tire mounting/ balancing gear (cheated on mount bar).
7) swapped a new bottom end in to my dads Freightliner sprinter (van) after some dealer monkey failed to torque any of the rods.

I generally just do it/ figure out how to make it happen.



Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
[*]What is your budget? If you are a successful doctor or attorney or politician, and your goal is to maintain a bayou camp to entertain your clients and possibly family, you might have some serious loot to focus on the problem.
Budget is theoretically around a Grand, I'm sure that will end up doubling, but that is to be expected.
Unfortunately, loot is a department I'm short on (not desperately so), if I had lots of it I'd just spend it on more/ nicer tools.



Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
[*]What does camp mean? When you say camp, I was imagining a humble, small, simple one or two room structure where you go on an occasional weekend... kind of a Louisiana version of a Russian Dacha. But it occurred to me that this might be a business venture for you, and that 'camp' really meant a spacious lodge where paying guests went for a weekend, and a full time maintenance man was on site to guard the property and keep up the equipment.
It is a 1890 built house that would have been fairly nice at the time, but in no way large at 650 square feet. Up until shortly before I got it, there was only outside walls (vertical red cypress planks) with bed sheets stapled up inside to slow down the wind, it was cooled by 3 12,000 btu window units run via bare copper wire suspended in the un insulated attic by ceramic standoffs. Right before i got it, sheet rock was installed on all interior walls spaced by horizontal 2x4's. I have added insulation to most of the wall area by shoving it in holes for outlets, around the window frames when I replaced them with new double pane vs old single pane(with many cracks), caulked/ great stuffed all visible holes (there were lots and lots), and blew in about 3-4 of cellulose (after it settled) in the attic. It could certainly be tighter, but a 2/3 reduction in required cooling is nothing to sneeze at.

No one pays to stay at camp, but it would be nice, I do have a buddy living there right now while he moves from the New Orleans area.



Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
[*]What amount of time do you you plan to use it? How much of the time do you, or your paying guests actually intend to use this camp? If it is a few times a year, for a few days at a time, that could justify one approach, and if it is for say, five months a year, or full-time for you and/or paying guests, then there would be entirely different solutions.
Up until the last few months, it has been "on" about 2 days a month (no reason to improve on $10-$15 electric bills), but lately (and for the coming months) it has been on 100% of the time, I haven't seen any of the bills (buddy living there is paying them) but I'm sure I wouldn't be happy.
Hopefully my rent free tenant will fix it up enough so that it would be used a large portion of the time, say 25-50%? Then again, I get 200 meg Cable Internet there, and here (from which I can see a McDonald's, churches chicken, 2 gas stations etc if I stand on the roof) I have to WiFi 6 meg unreliable DSL a mile to use in my house, so maybe more.


Please advise.

-AC[/QUOTE]
dremd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-13, 01:19 AM   #14
dremd
Need More Eco
 
dremd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scott, La
Posts: 169
Thanks: 2
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Send a message via AIM to dremd
Default

I've been thinking a lot about tube in tube heat exchanger construction, and realized the guys running plastic external tubes are doing heat only so their heat exchangers are COLD (duh). Mine would be hot, so I'd need copped at least on the hot side.

Maybe 10 feet copper-copper then the rest copper-PEX with a thermal cut off.

More thoughts, maybe what would be equally energy saving would be web connected thermostat (NEST at least looks pimp) such that the cooling could be switched to a lower setting several hours prior to arriving. I suppose either a contactor, or a solid state relay with a bit of re-wiring would make that happen. This would also have the benefit of getting the thermostat away from the A/C this making it much more accurate. Anybody have any experience doing such a "conversion" to a window unit?


As another note, sorry for the terribly slow response, for some reason I didn't get a forum notification, I probably have this thread open in a browser window someplace.
dremd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-13, 12:28 AM   #15
dremd
Need More Eco
 
dremd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scott, La
Posts: 169
Thanks: 2
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Send a message via AIM to dremd
Default

Thoughts keep coming:

I have an unused water well near by (20 ft?) now that I have city water.

What if I drew water from the well, and returned it to the bayou?
I'd have a foot or 5 of lift involved, and not any longer be able to use a submersible pump (which would likely eliminate self prime, so a high temp limit switch would become required). However the biological slime would be nearly non existent, and particulates would likely be low with my modest flow rates.
Still open loop, still limited site work, little bit more water pump requirement, but potential for reduced clogs.

Thoughts?
dremd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-13, 09:22 PM   #16
jeff5may
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA
Posts: 2,384
Thanks: 405
Thanked 604 Times in 506 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to jeff5may
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dremd View Post
I've been thinking a lot about tube in tube heat exchanger construction, and realized the guys running plastic external tubes are doing heat only so their heat exchangers are COLD (duh). Mine would be hot, so I'd need copped at least on the hot side.

Maybe 10 feet copper-copper then the rest copper-PEX with a thermal cut off.
If you added to the existing condensor, you could run copper plus plastic with no worries of overheating anything. The existing condensor capacity would temper the hot gas and convert it to warm liquid. The coaxial exchanger would work in liquid-liquid exchange mode, cooling and subcooling the liquid line to very close to the well or bayou water temperature, effectively raising your SEER close to its maximum attainable value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dremd View Post
More thoughts, maybe what would be equally energy saving would be web connected thermostat (NEST at least looks pimp) such that the cooling could be switched to a lower setting several hours prior to arriving. I suppose either a contactor, or a solid state relay with a bit of re-wiring would make that happen. This would also have the benefit of getting the thermostat away from the A/C this making it much more accurate. Anybody have any experience doing such a "conversion" to a window unit?
If you can wire up a remote starter for a car alarm, you can control the window unit. Just replace the thermostat (if knob-type) with relay contacts or use transistors (if digital-type) to assume control of the compressor relay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dremd View Post
As another note, sorry for the terribly slow response, for some reason I didn't get a forum notification, I probably have this thread open in a browser window someplace.
The maximum energy efficiency you can get out of these units depends on many factors. The most important is your incoming water temperature. If the well source is much cooler than the bayou source, it would provide a better heat sink. The next most important factor is the metering device. A txv would match the evaporator load much better than the existing cap tube. Both of these factors add complexity and expense to the units. They may or may not end up paying for themselves quickly.

In contrast, air-sealing and well-insulating a leaky, uninsulated building will always pay themselves back many times over and over without any upgrade of your heating or cooling source. A small solar roof vent would do magic for this little house IMHO. Especially on a sunny summer holiday weekend.

Last edited by jeff5may; 04-21-13 at 09:38 PM..
jeff5may is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-13, 02:52 AM   #17
jeff5may
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA
Posts: 2,384
Thanks: 405
Thanked 604 Times in 506 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to jeff5may
Default

Dremd,

Any progress on the project? Summer is right around the corner...
jeff5may is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-13, 08:33 AM   #18
dremd
Need More Eco
 
dremd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scott, La
Posts: 169
Thanks: 2
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Send a message via AIM to dremd
Default

Unfortunately, not yet, all of my Eco-modding is currently going in to my automatic 1.8t-> 6 speed manual TDI VW motor swap.
dremd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-13, 03:50 PM   #19
Daox
Administrator
 
Daox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germantown, WI
Posts: 5,471
Thanks: 1,110
Thanked 367 Times in 298 Posts
Default

Poking this one again, sounded very interesting!
__________________
Current project -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
&
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Daox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-13, 04:04 PM   #20
dremd
Need More Eco
 
dremd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scott, La
Posts: 169
Thanks: 2
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Send a message via AIM to dremd
Default

I'm still very interested, I've pretty much decided to start with 1 unit (there are now 6,500 BTU, 8,000 BTU, and 10,000 BTU units), draw water from the unused well, and return it to bayou, that way I don't have very much pump head, and fairly low sediment (esp at lower flow rates). Next step is selecting pump, I'd like one that could self prime, if not I'll have to engineer some sort of anti-drain back system (check valve??). Any pump suggestions?

I'm fairly settled on a tube in tube heat exchanger with the hottest 5 feet being copper, and the remainder (maybe 25 more feet) being PEX with a high temp shutoff located at the junction of the copper outer pipe to the PEX outer pipe. A thermal disc should work great, its only there so that when pumping fails I don't cook the PEX + likely the unit. I've seen few TXV's in that size range, anyone have a reliable source?

Biggest hold up is MY TDI swap which is taking WAY longer than anticipated.
After that, next up grade will be a NEST with 8k as stage one and 10k +8k as stage 2.
Advantages of NEST for me
Humidity monitoring (biggest reason A/C runs there)
De-humidifier trigger (may add regular de-humidifier on a solid state relay)
Ability to monitor + control A/C's remotely so I can have it cool at arival.
no need to cycle Blower to sample air (wasteful of energy and makes extra noise when sleeping)

dremd is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Ad Management by RedTyger
Inactive Reminders By Icora Web Design