Elon Musk did it again

Zwerius · 10-29-16, 10:58 AM

Beautifull solar roofs, everybody was waiting for.
Is the rest of the solar industry sleeping?
See this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sfw...ature=youtu.be

stevehull · 10-29-16, 03:17 PM

About $1500 - $2000 per roofing "square" (100 sq feet).

Roof cost of ~ $50,000 for a 2500 sq ft home.

Steve

where2 · 10-29-16, 08:58 PM

Never mind the roof tiles, I want the Powerwall 2... If the Florida solar constitutional amendment on the ballot on Nov 8th goes in favor of the power companies lobbying, I could see adding a Powerwall 2.

MN Renovator · 10-30-16, 01:37 AM

"About $1500 - $2000 per roofing "square" (100 sq feet).
Roof cost of ~ $50,000 for a 2500 sq ft home."

That is much more expensive than my reroof I had a few years ago before installing solar. The price was probably higher for my reroof too because the replacement was covered by insurance. My reroof and solar install came in at about half that. Granted my roof was about 19 square and the solar system is a 12 280 watt module system.

The questions I have seem simple but are unanswered so far.

Consider the following:
1. You have this nice pretty roof, but normally we reroof the house to be uniform on all sides.
2. Would you want to install solar on the non-beneficial sides of the house such as the north side or a west or east side that has trees, while the south side has a nice solar window? I'm assuming the cost of this isn't the same as a standard roof, based on the $50k estimate above, seems that it isn't.
3. In my neck of the woods, almost nobody pays for a reroof, we get hail damage replacements. I have the feeling my insurance company is going to low ball me on the roof replacement if they aren't going to pay for a like-for-like replacement, especially if it is an upgraded roof. When I had my house reroofed, it was either take about 2/3 the cost of the actual replacement(subtract the deductible after that), or have it replaced and the costs would be forwarded from the installer for a like-for-like replacement for the full cost minus the deductible. ..so the reroof would cost more, and probably still be much cheaper and far less labor to install standard modules.
4. If installing on multiple faces, how are the diodes setup(are there module equivalent sizes?), how about the MPPT between faces.
5. How is this wired? In the past the building integrated solar panels required a bunch of penetrations through the roof sheathing, I'm wondering if they got around that somehow.
6. Grounding, how?

Seems pretty, I'm just curious on the logistics. I'd figure there would be a non-producing faux-similar shingle for the areas that are not going to be producing sides of the house, including north side, shaded areas from trees, chimneys, roof architecture, etc.

I'm also still lost on the powerwall too. In my area of Minnesota, in order to collect on our 10 year production based incentive(on top of solar net metering), you need to feed back to the grid in a predictable way because the grid needs to the benefit in an unmodified way for the power company to sell those M-RETS credits that they are based the production based incentive off of. We also have a time of use system that doesn't benefit solar production very much, so the arbitrage of time shifting doesn't benefit financially, so it seems you'd buy a 14kwh battery and it's associated equipment for a high price and cycle it with no benefit that I can see.

Is the Powerwall generally a thing people use to buy the power cheap at night and dump on the grid when it's expensive? For a backup solution it seems very expensive. For an off-grid solution, it seems like an excellent augment or replacement to short life lead-acid systems. I find the load balancing benefits for utilities to be excellent but I would figure that for the utilities to benefit from it, they would likely prefer to be in control otherwise a consumer controlled system would seem to cause more imbalance if it isn't synchronized with the peak needs. Am I missing something?

Fionn · 10-30-16, 03:26 AM

Slightly off topic but why don't you use roofing materials that can survive the typical weather conditions in your area? Seems a bit ridiculous to me to be continually having homes reroofed via insurance claims.

randen · 10-30-16, 06:14 AM

If I had a pitched roof I'd be signed up. How ridicules to be replacing these roofs every few years. I have had friends "hey come over this weekend, we're going to re-shingle" I got sucked in a couple times for a few beers, lunch and a big thank you.

Ashphalt shingles LANDFILL. Oh but yes there cheap. But 25 yr warranty RIGHT.

I am so appreciative to see alternatives now to this deplorable building material. Steel and aluminum roofs. NOT CHEAP but you don't have to go thru the re-roofing every 10-15 years if they last that long.

MN Renovator You have your roof replaced by the insurance co. for hail damage!!!???

For my home I decided on a welded PVC membrane flat roof. Warrantied 40yrs. No gutters to mess with and the scuppers can provide water catchment if you want but we just direct it to the field drain.

The roofs been on 20 yrs. and looks as good as new.

The solar roof, what a spectacular idea. Based on the square footage for my roof and what I have spent on my 10 kw solar. The solar roof is good value. Not to mention its a lifetime roof!!! and you get electricity ????!!!

If what is indicated by steve hull is true $2000.00/square!!! Great value.

Randen

oil pan 4 · 10-30-16, 09:53 AM

So now a catastrophic hail storm costs 50,000+ instead of $10,000.

MN Renovator · 10-30-16, 04:18 PM

"Slightly off topic but why don't you use roofing materials that can survive the typical weather conditions in your area? Seems a bit ridiculous to me to be continually having homes reroofed via insurance claims."
...and randen's post too.

Things are better than they used to be but the old 3-tab shingle with 20-25 year warranties would usually last about 15 years in Minnesota until they could be declared by an insurance company as damaged by hail. The newer architechural shingles should last between 25-30 years. The shingles that I replaced my roof with have a "lifetime" warranty. The lifetime warranty basically covers a shingle replacment for materials and labor in the first 10 years but no roof ever really needs to be replaced in that period. In 25 years they cover 50% of the cost of the shingles. The normal price of the shingles is under $60 per square and with my roof, the price of shingles is about $1000, so they would basically cover $500 for the warranty in 5 years. Most of the cost is in labor replacement, so basically the real warranty is 10 years, which is a warranty claim they almost never pay out. ..and most people think, "oh, well this brand of shingles only lasted me xx years, why would I put them on if my insurance company is paying for the replament anyway, let's put a different brand on".

The reality is my own roof was 15 years old, they were defective biodegradable(I kid you not, I think Certainteed advertised them this way) shingles that would curl severly from the summer sun and winter heat changes. I had sections of my roof that weren't impacted by defect that weren't in the sun that had qualifying hail and wind damage. I'm sure the roof wouldn't have leaked for another 10 years but I wanted a solar system, so I had the insurance company look at it based on the last wind/hail event and they confirmed that the roof was damaged. In Minnesota, if you can't replace the roof with a substantially similar product, the insurance company needs to swap the entire roof. I got a roof replacement for $1000 and got the upgraded "lifetime" architechtural shingles to replace the 4-tab Certainteed biodegradable curling garbage-by-design the previous owners put on the house.

Why don't people care? The average homeowner doesn't stay in a house for long enough to need another roof replacement. Average people buy starter homes with the intention to replace it with their family home after a kid or two. Once those kids grow up in 20 years, they buy their empty nester home until they die or move to their retirement home. So basically people will usually never reroof a house more than once and they nearly always get a replacement from the insurance company where they pay the $500-2500 deductbile and figure it's a 20 year sunk cost. In Minnesota, our insurance rates are higher to cover the cost of roof replacement, it's essentially a built in cost and the insurers don't want the reputation of not covering the roofs, so they do the job even if it is technically not going to cause a leak. A secondary reality is if they deny the coverage and there is water damage, it costs them a pile more to deal with both the roof and water damage, so they want to the replace the roof anyway.

What do I think is an ideal roof for my climate? A flat roof with EPDM rubber roof covered with an aggregate(rock) covering to prevent sunlight and hail from ever hitting the actual water barrier material. This would be a lifetime roof in Minnesota. The reality is that this is extremely expensive because you need to design the roofing structure to carry both the rock and 100% of the worst snow load on a flat surface. For a house that is bought by a person in their 20's that they would eventually retire in, that would be worth it IMHO, but people generally don't commit to staying put. Instead it's a 20-25 year landfill replacment that gets paid for in additional annual insurance costs.

"So now a catastrophic hail storm costs 50,000+ instead of $10,000." Not quite, I've never actually heard of any damage to solar panels by hail."

Based on this video, I've concluded that the glass(which is substantially heavier than what's on your normaly house or skylight windows) is much stronger than asphalt shingles. These are the same brand that I have installed on my house. This video shows simulated hail being shot at solar panels at 384km/h or 262mph. I google terminal velocity hail and get 171km/h or 106mph.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6v2lDa8Hos

I'm not sure how heavy this weight is but I think this is promising too.
https://twitter.com/TeslaMotors/stat...15795874922497

jjackstone · 10-30-16, 11:43 PM

Has anyone seen any specs on these yet? Power output/square meter maybe. He talked about having the most efficient panels but didn't mention what the efficiency is. I think I've heard 19 or 20% in the past for Solar City panels. But what is the actual coverage on the roof? It did not look like 100% coverage per panel. Seems like it would be better to have a larger than shingle sized panel both to decrease installation time and installation material cost. And don't forget, there are other companies doing the same thing out there although they may not have the same advertising clout as Mr. Musk.

jeff5may · 10-31-16, 12:17 PM

OK boys and girls, the roofing systems Tesla is promoting will never compare in price to a typical "average working-class-American home" style roof. The asphalt shingle over asphalt felt over OSB sheathing roofing systems common in middle-class, single-family homes is an upgrade over a hot tin roof, but was (and is) designed to be economical (aka cheap) while providing a reasonable (aka comparatively short) lifespan. To most nonprofessional citizens, the Tesla roofing systems would be a major upgrade, most likely requiring a home equity loan or inheritance to finance. These roofing systems are aimed at the high-end sector of the market, where the homeowner has a substantial disposable income.

In this light, from the perspective of dwellers with maybe 3 times the national average of yearly income, these roofing systems are competitive with existing roofing materials. The type of owner who can afford to consider a slate or terra cotta roofing system will find the price and durability of these offerings very attractive. Many "upper-class" citizens are not enthusiastic about having rectangular solar panels plastered over their stylish, expensive rooftops. More importantly, affluent homeowners can afford to put their money where their mouths are, making a moral/ethical decision towards eco-friendly products. Having a viable choice that is also super-durable and visually appealing has been missing from the market until now. I imagine Tesla and Solar City will install a whole lot of these roofing systems in the very near future.

10-29-16, 03:17 PM	#2
stevehull Steve Hull Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: hilly, tree covered Arcadia, OK USA Posts: 826 Thanks: 241 Thanked 165 Times in 123 Posts	About $1500 - $2000 per roofing "square" (100 sq feet). Roof cost of ~ $50,000 for a 2500 sq ft home. Steve __________________ consulting on geothermal heating/cooling & rational energy use since 1990

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10-29-16, 08:58 PM	#3
where2 DIY Geek Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 401 Thanks: 74 Thanked 83 Times in 73 Posts	Never mind the roof tiles, I want the Powerwall 2... If the Florida solar constitutional amendment on the ballot on Nov 8th goes in favor of the power companies lobbying, I could see adding a Powerwall 2.

10-30-16, 01:37 AM	#4
MN Renovator Less usage=Cheaper bills Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 939 Thanks: 41 Thanked 116 Times in 90 Posts	"About $1500 - $2000 per roofing "square" (100 sq feet). Roof cost of ~ $50,000 for a 2500 sq ft home." That is much more expensive than my reroof I had a few years ago before installing solar. The price was probably higher for my reroof too because the replacement was covered by insurance. My reroof and solar install came in at about half that. Granted my roof was about 19 square and the solar system is a 12 280 watt module system. The questions I have seem simple but are unanswered so far. Consider the following: 1. You have this nice pretty roof, but normally we reroof the house to be uniform on all sides. 2. Would you want to install solar on the non-beneficial sides of the house such as the north side or a west or east side that has trees, while the south side has a nice solar window? I'm assuming the cost of this isn't the same as a standard roof, based on the $50k estimate above, seems that it isn't. 3. In my neck of the woods, almost nobody pays for a reroof, we get hail damage replacements. I have the feeling my insurance company is going to low ball me on the roof replacement if they aren't going to pay for a like-for-like replacement, especially if it is an upgraded roof. When I had my house reroofed, it was either take about 2/3 the cost of the actual replacement(subtract the deductible after that), or have it replaced and the costs would be forwarded from the installer for a like-for-like replacement for the full cost minus the deductible. ..so the reroof would cost more, and probably still be much cheaper and far less labor to install standard modules. 4. If installing on multiple faces, how are the diodes setup(are there module equivalent sizes?), how about the MPPT between faces. 5. How is this wired? In the past the building integrated solar panels required a bunch of penetrations through the roof sheathing, I'm wondering if they got around that somehow. 6. Grounding, how? Seems pretty, I'm just curious on the logistics. I'd figure there would be a non-producing faux-similar shingle for the areas that are not going to be producing sides of the house, including north side, shaded areas from trees, chimneys, roof architecture, etc. I'm also still lost on the powerwall too. In my area of Minnesota, in order to collect on our 10 year production based incentive(on top of solar net metering), you need to feed back to the grid in a predictable way because the grid needs to the benefit in an unmodified way for the power company to sell those M-RETS credits that they are based the production based incentive off of. We also have a time of use system that doesn't benefit solar production very much, so the arbitrage of time shifting doesn't benefit financially, so it seems you'd buy a 14kwh battery and it's associated equipment for a high price and cycle it with no benefit that I can see. Is the Powerwall generally a thing people use to buy the power cheap at night and dump on the grid when it's expensive? For a backup solution it seems very expensive. For an off-grid solution, it seems like an excellent augment or replacement to short life lead-acid systems. I find the load balancing benefits for utilities to be excellent but I would figure that for the utilities to benefit from it, they would likely prefer to be in control otherwise a consumer controlled system would seem to cause more imbalance if it isn't synchronized with the peak needs. Am I missing something?

10-30-16, 03:26 AM	#5
Fionn Lurking Renovator Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Ireland Posts: 25 Thanks: 3 Thanked 6 Times in 2 Posts	Slightly off topic but why don't you use roofing materials that can survive the typical weather conditions in your area? Seems a bit ridiculous to me to be continually having homes reroofed via insurance claims.

10-30-16, 06:14 AM	#6
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	If I had a pitched roof I'd be signed up. How ridicules to be replacing these roofs every few years. I have had friends "hey come over this weekend, we're going to re-shingle" I got sucked in a couple times for a few beers, lunch and a big thank you. Ashphalt shingles LANDFILL. Oh but yes there cheap. But 25 yr warranty RIGHT. I am so appreciative to see alternatives now to this deplorable building material. Steel and aluminum roofs. NOT CHEAP but you don't have to go thru the re-roofing every 10-15 years if they last that long. MN Renovator You have your roof replaced by the insurance co. for hail damage!!!??? For my home I decided on a welded PVC membrane flat roof. Warrantied 40yrs. No gutters to mess with and the scuppers can provide water catchment if you want but we just direct it to the field drain. The roofs been on 20 yrs. and looks as good as new. The solar roof, what a spectacular idea. Based on the square footage for my roof and what I have spent on my 10 kw solar. The solar roof is good value. Not to mention its a lifetime roof!!! and you get electricity ????!!! If what is indicated by steve hull is true $2000.00/square!!! Great value. Randen

10-30-16, 09:53 AM	#7
oil pan 4 Land owner Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: NM Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 12 Thanked 127 Times in 107 Posts	So now a catastrophic hail storm costs 50,000+ instead of $10,000.

10-30-16, 11:43 PM	#9
jjackstone Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sacramento,Ca Posts: 88 Thanks: 5 Thanked 32 Times in 23 Posts	Has anyone seen any specs on these yet? Power output/square meter maybe. He talked about having the most efficient panels but didn't mention what the efficiency is. I think I've heard 19 or 20% in the past for Solar City panels. But what is the actual coverage on the roof? It did not look like 100% coverage per panel. Seems like it would be better to have a larger than shingle sized panel both to decrease installation time and installation material cost. And don't forget, there are other companies doing the same thing out there although they may not have the same advertising clout as Mr. Musk.

10-31-16, 12:17 PM	#10
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,428 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	OK boys and girls, the roofing systems Tesla is promoting will never compare in price to a typical "average working-class-American home" style roof. The asphalt shingle over asphalt felt over OSB sheathing roofing systems common in middle-class, single-family homes is an upgrade over a hot tin roof, but was (and is) designed to be economical (aka cheap) while providing a reasonable (aka comparatively short) lifespan. To most nonprofessional citizens, the Tesla roofing systems would be a major upgrade, most likely requiring a home equity loan or inheritance to finance. These roofing systems are aimed at the high-end sector of the market, where the homeowner has a substantial disposable income. In this light, from the perspective of dwellers with maybe 3 times the national average of yearly income, these roofing systems are competitive with existing roofing materials. The type of owner who can afford to consider a slate or terra cotta roofing system will find the price and durability of these offerings very attractive. Many "upper-class" citizens are not enthusiastic about having rectangular solar panels plastered over their stylish, expensive rooftops. More importantly, affluent homeowners can afford to put their money where their mouths are, making a moral/ethical decision towards eco-friendly products. Having a viable choice that is also super-durable and visually appealing has been missing from the market until now. I imagine Tesla and Solar City will install a whole lot of these roofing systems in the very near future.