Propane (R-290) for heat pumps? - Page 26

buffalobillpatrick · 11-13-14, 09:37 AM

This was posted on a Pro HVAC site:

"I sure wish you (Pros) would stop the fear mongering, mythology etc about R290.
It is not going to launch your house to the moon!
It is much more efficient than the present garbage being pushed by big business an the EPA. Especially the EPA.
They are spitting out lie after lie to keep you hooked into their systems.
The auto ignition temperature is R290 is quite high making it a much safer gas to be around than gasoline but no one is afraid of gasoline!
I have been servicing my personal central air systems with R290 for over 30 years.
Yes I do check them for leaks with a torch and have found leaks this way.
Yup it lights off! Don't pee your pants just put it out. Usually I blow it out. Wow that was scarey.
Almost every country in the world uses R290 except the USA "GD EPA!"
I also use a blend of R290/R600A in my automobiles. Have been since the lunacy about R12 started. Go get um Dupont. Sell um more crap, "R134A."
Before I'll service my cars with R134A I'll drive with the windows down. That crap will kill you.

Benefits of R290 are due to the uni molecule and a better laminar flow in the tubes, higher heat transfer etc.
Even in old unit designed for R22 you will attain a savings in energy of approximately 20% by just replacing R22 with R290. With a new unit built for R290 you will save even more. First you save in initial cost as the tubing can be smaller, “costing less” the Compressor can be smaller due to the smaller loads, etc, etc, etc.
My house has two units. One is a split unit with the Condenser/Compressor unit on the ground and the Evaporator/Air Handler in the attic above the third floor.
The second unit is a Package 3.5 Ton Miller heat pump.
The Miller was charged with R22 when I purchased it on Ebay for $32.00.
I purchased a Foreclosure "highly vandalized" for setting up for retirement.
The copper had been stolen so fixed up the split unit with copper and wiring and charged it up with the last of my R22 stock. It ran fine did a great job for about three weeks.
I then started checking for leaks as it was not cooling very well. Pressure was down and I found a leak in the air handler.
Not wanting to be ripped off again by my government and Dupont I said to hell with it and dried some old fashioned propane from a 100 lb bottle into a 30 lb recovery bottle.
It's got to be dry! Real dry!
Propane/R290 is totally orderless so they add “Methanethiol (also known as methyl Mercaptan) is a colorless gas with a smell like rotten cabbage” so you can smell it.
I've heard it smells like the cabbage statement as well as rotten eggs. I don't think it smells like either of them.
Mercaptan is Sulfur based and will make Sulfuric Acid in contact with moisture.
Make it dry guys/gals.
I use two large dryers in series with my manifold when charging my service bottle.
Probably over kill but it works. I've never had any problems with years of using it in my systems.

Of course there are manufacturers who make compressors and other equipment designed for R290 which makes it even more efficient.
Smaller tubes as the uni molecule flows more efficiently than R22, “reducing the charge needed” therefore less product to move with the compressor thus saving energy.
Even with that as I stated if you just recharge your old R22 system properly with R290 you will gain an over all efficiency increase of about 20% to 30%. Personally I've never achieved more than 20% but at the cost of energy these days I'd do it for 2%!
The flammability of R290 is a none issue but I'll leave it to those of you with intelligence enough to do your research and find the truth yourselves. I'll leave the Myth spitting idiots to themselves and hope the hell they never work on any AC system for any of my family!

Ahh hell here is some info from research done in Australia.
They have made R134 illegal to import or use. They use R290 and R600a.
Look here for another source of info. Not EPA Obama propaganda.

Remember the words are sometimes not spelled the way we do. They speak real English, we speak a dialect that is made up from many languages. I too prefer our way of spelling etc, but don't want you to think idiots wrote this.
They are just as smart as us and a hell of a lot smarter than the idiots running our country.

7 Ignition Probability

Lunde and Lorentzen [19] found that a toxic refrigerant ﬂammable in air but with an odour can have lower accident frequency and risk than a nontoxic, non ﬂammable, odorless refrigerant. The presence of odour from a leak warns people to take appropriate precautions. Almost all R290/600a used in MACS is odorized and this may be partly responsible for there being no recorded injuries or over pressures (Table 3).

Most of the predicted ﬁres in Table 3 were condenser leaks igniting following collisions. For example, [14] gave the frequency of leaks following collisions of 0.01 per car-year and multiplied this by a 0.01 conditional probability of ignition. Odour has no effect for most ﬁre scenarios as occupants are in the cabin and the leak is in the engine bay.

A typical MACS leak is less than 1 mg s −1 which is too small to sustain a ﬂame since the heat loss at ﬂame temperature is greater than the heat generation rate [20].

Leaks up to 15 g s−1 peak have been measured from MACS [4] and are possible after collisions. While liquid R290/600a remains above −20 ◦ C, the pressure in the MACS will be over 189 kPa. The jet from most such leaks only slows below the ﬂame velocity when it has mixed with air below the ﬂammable limit. It is ﬂammable only with a permanent ignition source [21]. Cars in normal operation have no exposed ignition sources for R290/600a [14] and permanent ignition sources are created in few collisions.

Fracture of the MACS liquid receiver or attached tubes in a collision can produce a leak rate up to 300 g s−1 [21] for less than 1 s. About 200 g of R290/600a liquid can ﬂash to a 25 L white cloud. The cloud is initially about 7 times denser than air but is ﬂammable only at its boundary. Normal atmospheric motion removes it from possible ignition sources in less than 2 s and dilutes it below ﬂammable in less than 10 s. Only cases without ignition are known [15].

For the previous reasons, R290/600a is non ﬂammable under the conditions of most leaks. This is consistent with the actual conditional probability of ignition being hundreds of Hydrocarbon ignition sources

Razmovski (1994) and Rajasekariah (1995) searched for ignition sources using
a propane welding torch attached to a cylinder of hydrocarbon refrigerant.
The car was parked in a sheltered outdoor position with fine weather.

They started the engine and allowed idling until it reached normal operating
temperature i.e., typically for ten minutes. They ignited the welding torch then adjusted it to give a stable yellow fame about 70 mm long. They extinguished the fame with an air blast and tested for easy re-ignition with lighted matches and cigarette lighter.

The extinguished torch was played over the hot engine, electrical, ignition and exhaust. Then the door, light and brake switches, fan motor, relays and cigarette lighter were tested in the passenger compartment. Each test took over fifteen minutes and 50 to 100 g of flammable refrigerant were used for each test depending on the car. Table 5 lists the model and year of manufacture of the ten cars. They found no ignition sources either inside or outside the passenger compartment on any of the cars tested.

Leakage of fuel into the passenger compartment is not uncommon. A manufacturer would be negligent to use open relays, switches or motors which could ignite a fuel/air mixture. Enclosed electrical components are also more reliable saving on warranty claims. The incidental effect is a match or cigarette lighter is the only ignition source for a refrigerant mixture in the passenger compartment as Razmovski and Rajasekariah found. The consumption of cigarettes over the whole driving population is equivalent to about ten cigarettes a day (Department of Community Services and Health 1990). I will assume that half the cigarettes consumed in cars are lit with the car’s cigarette lighter and would not cause ignition. We then have five potential ignitions per driver per day.

That's enough, go look for yourselves.
You can choose to believe the EPA if you wish.
I have had some very close up and personal contact and dealings with EPA!
They are Idiots with an IQ approximately the same as the square root of their shoe size! "

buffalobillpatrick · 11-13-14, 09:48 AM

More Info:

Critical temps: R290 = 96.8C, R22 = 96C, R410a = 72.5C

One test that I read:
R290 Vs R22
Suction Pressure -6%
Discharge Pressure -12%
Pressure Difference -15%
Pressure Ratio -7%
Discharge Temperature -16K
Volumetric Capacity -14%
COP +0.5%

HD-5 Propane

HD5 grade propane is "consumer grade" propane and is the most widely sold and distributed grade of propane in the U.S. market. HD5 is the highest grade propane available to consumers in the United States and is what propane companies ordinarily sell to their customers. What does HD5 propane mean in terms of specification to an ordinary consumer? It means that the propane is suitable and recommended for engine fuel use, which was the original purpose of the HD5 grade propane specification. HD5 spec propane consists of:

Minimum of 90% propane
Maximum of 5% propylene - propylene is used in the manufacture of plastics
Other gases constitute the remainder (iso-butane, butane, methane, etc.)

The HD5 specification is based on "allowable" contents. For instance, 99% propane and 1% propylene is HD5 grade propane the same as 95% propane and 5% propylene is HD5 propane. Although the product consistency and purity is different, both mixtures are considered HD5 propane because they fall within the allowable limits for the product to be named and labeled as such.

Note: propylene in with the propane is not necessarily a bad thing for refrigerant, it causes some "glide" which is a small range of temperature at which the mixture Evaporates or Condenses.

Same deal with BBQ propane, it has a small amount of Butane and/or Isobutane, which will give some "glide"

AC_Hacker · 11-13-14, 11:56 AM

The only dispute I have with the guy who "posted on a Pro HVAC site", has to do with his notion that, "They speak real English, we speak a dialect that is made up from many languages..."

He needs to seriously broaden his field of information.

He's living in a cone of delusion if he thinks that "real English" has any purity at all.

Otherwise, he knows what he's talking about.

-AC

buffalobillpatrick · 11-13-14, 12:50 PM

A/C , yes I agree, I caught that "real English" B/S also.

With some OZ googling: Mobile Air Conditioning Society (MACS)

buffalobillpatrick · 11-13-14, 03:28 PM

Jeff5May,

did you use Suniso L320 (5GS) mineral oil (ISO 100)

Or

SUNISO L319 (4GS) Mineral Refrigeration Oil - 300 SUS (ISO 68)

?

NiHaoMike · 11-13-14, 04:59 PM

The oil supplied with the compressor should work fine.

jeff5may · 11-13-14, 05:23 PM

I used Shell 100 weight because the local supply shop carried shell and nu-calgon brands, and the shell was in stock and cheaper. It's the same grade as the sunoco 5gs. At this level of quality, I would imagine the different brands are very much the same composition. They may differ a few ppm in minor additives (which may or may not make any difference).

buffalobillpatrick · 11-14-14, 09:56 AM

http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewc...8&context=icec
See pg 2

jeff5may · 11-14-14, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffalobillpatrick

http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewc...8&context=icec
See pg 2

DOH! They used 68 weight!

I have read this paper before, and in fact it was one of the papers that encouraged me to try a liquid/suction heat exchanger. IMHO, they work well in cold weather to keep the cold side cold and the warm side warm. When outdoor temperatures aren't as nippy, they don't help out as much. Except for maybe thickening your oil by boiling out some dissolved propane.

buffalobillpatrick · 11-15-14, 03:05 PM

Some good "Ragging" on the Refrigeration Monopoly & why hydrocarbon refrigerant is safe.
by:
John W Clark
HyChill Australia

Starts about 2/3 down 1st page & continues on pg2

Refrigerant underground in direct expansion ground source heat pump - GreenBuildingTalk - GreenBuildingTalk - Green Building Forums on Insulating Concrete Forms (ICF), Structural Insulated Panels (SIP), Radiant Heating, Geothermal Heat Pumps, Solar P

Interesting read:
http://www.epa.gov/greenchill/downlo...frigerants.pdf

11-13-14, 09:37 AM	#251
buffalobillpatrick Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Florissant, Colorado Posts: 599 Thanks: 814 Thanked 59 Times in 55 Posts	This was posted on a Pro HVAC site: "I sure wish you (Pros) would stop the fear mongering, mythology etc about R290. It is not going to launch your house to the moon! It is much more efficient than the present garbage being pushed by big business an the EPA. Especially the EPA. They are spitting out lie after lie to keep you hooked into their systems. The auto ignition temperature is R290 is quite high making it a much safer gas to be around than gasoline but no one is afraid of gasoline! I have been servicing my personal central air systems with R290 for over 30 years. Yes I do check them for leaks with a torch and have found leaks this way. Yup it lights off! Don't pee your pants just put it out. Usually I blow it out. Wow that was scarey. Almost every country in the world uses R290 except the USA "GD EPA!" I also use a blend of R290/R600A in my automobiles. Have been since the lunacy about R12 started. Go get um Dupont. Sell um more crap, "R134A." Before I'll service my cars with R134A I'll drive with the windows down. That crap will kill you. Benefits of R290 are due to the uni molecule and a better laminar flow in the tubes, higher heat transfer etc. Even in old unit designed for R22 you will attain a savings in energy of approximately 20% by just replacing R22 with R290. With a new unit built for R290 you will save even more. First you save in initial cost as the tubing can be smaller, “costing less” the Compressor can be smaller due to the smaller loads, etc, etc, etc. My house has two units. One is a split unit with the Condenser/Compressor unit on the ground and the Evaporator/Air Handler in the attic above the third floor. The second unit is a Package 3.5 Ton Miller heat pump. The Miller was charged with R22 when I purchased it on Ebay for $32.00. I purchased a Foreclosure "highly vandalized" for setting up for retirement. The copper had been stolen so fixed up the split unit with copper and wiring and charged it up with the last of my R22 stock. It ran fine did a great job for about three weeks. I then started checking for leaks as it was not cooling very well. Pressure was down and I found a leak in the air handler. Not wanting to be ripped off again by my government and Dupont I said to hell with it and dried some old fashioned propane from a 100 lb bottle into a 30 lb recovery bottle. It's got to be dry! Real dry! Propane/R290 is totally orderless so they add “Methanethiol (also known as methyl Mercaptan) is a colorless gas with a smell like rotten cabbage” so you can smell it. I've heard it smells like the cabbage statement as well as rotten eggs. I don't think it smells like either of them. Mercaptan is Sulfur based and will make Sulfuric Acid in contact with moisture. Make it dry guys/gals. I use two large dryers in series with my manifold when charging my service bottle. Probably over kill but it works. I've never had any problems with years of using it in my systems. Of course there are manufacturers who make compressors and other equipment designed for R290 which makes it even more efficient. Smaller tubes as the uni molecule flows more efficiently than R22, “reducing the charge needed” therefore less product to move with the compressor thus saving energy. Even with that as I stated if you just recharge your old R22 system properly with R290 you will gain an over all efficiency increase of about 20% to 30%. Personally I've never achieved more than 20% but at the cost of energy these days I'd do it for 2%! The flammability of R290 is a none issue but I'll leave it to those of you with intelligence enough to do your research and find the truth yourselves. I'll leave the Myth spitting idiots to themselves and hope the hell they never work on any AC system for any of my family! Ahh hell here is some info from research done in Australia. They have made R134 illegal to import or use. They use R290 and R600a. Look here for another source of info. Not EPA Obama propaganda. Remember the words are sometimes not spelled the way we do. They speak real English, we speak a dialect that is made up from many languages. I too prefer our way of spelling etc, but don't want you to think idiots wrote this. They are just as smart as us and a hell of a lot smarter than the idiots running our country. 7 Ignition Probability Lunde and Lorentzen [19] found that a toxic refrigerant ﬂammable in air but with an odour can have lower accident frequency and risk than a nontoxic, non ﬂammable, odorless refrigerant. The presence of odour from a leak warns people to take appropriate precautions. Almost all R290/600a used in MACS is odorized and this may be partly responsible for there being no recorded injuries or over pressures (Table 3). Most of the predicted ﬁres in Table 3 were condenser leaks igniting following collisions. For example, [14] gave the frequency of leaks following collisions of 0.01 per car-year and multiplied this by a 0.01 conditional probability of ignition. Odour has no effect for most ﬁre scenarios as occupants are in the cabin and the leak is in the engine bay. A typical MACS leak is less than 1 mg s −1 which is too small to sustain a ﬂame since the heat loss at ﬂame temperature is greater than the heat generation rate [20]. Leaks up to 15 g s−1 peak have been measured from MACS [4] and are possible after collisions. While liquid R290/600a remains above −20 ◦ C, the pressure in the MACS will be over 189 kPa. The jet from most such leaks only slows below the ﬂame velocity when it has mixed with air below the ﬂammable limit. It is ﬂammable only with a permanent ignition source [21]. Cars in normal operation have no exposed ignition sources for R290/600a [14] and permanent ignition sources are created in few collisions. Fracture of the MACS liquid receiver or attached tubes in a collision can produce a leak rate up to 300 g s−1 [21] for less than 1 s. About 200 g of R290/600a liquid can ﬂash to a 25 L white cloud. The cloud is initially about 7 times denser than air but is ﬂammable only at its boundary. Normal atmospheric motion removes it from possible ignition sources in less than 2 s and dilutes it below ﬂammable in less than 10 s. Only cases without ignition are known [15]. For the previous reasons, R290/600a is non ﬂammable under the conditions of most leaks. This is consistent with the actual conditional probability of ignition being hundreds of Hydrocarbon ignition sources Razmovski (1994) and Rajasekariah (1995) searched for ignition sources using a propane welding torch attached to a cylinder of hydrocarbon refrigerant. The car was parked in a sheltered outdoor position with fine weather. They started the engine and allowed idling until it reached normal operating temperature i.e., typically for ten minutes. They ignited the welding torch then adjusted it to give a stable yellow fame about 70 mm long. They extinguished the fame with an air blast and tested for easy re-ignition with lighted matches and cigarette lighter. The extinguished torch was played over the hot engine, electrical, ignition and exhaust. Then the door, light and brake switches, fan motor, relays and cigarette lighter were tested in the passenger compartment. Each test took over fifteen minutes and 50 to 100 g of flammable refrigerant were used for each test depending on the car. Table 5 lists the model and year of manufacture of the ten cars. They found no ignition sources either inside or outside the passenger compartment on any of the cars tested. Leakage of fuel into the passenger compartment is not uncommon. A manufacturer would be negligent to use open relays, switches or motors which could ignite a fuel/air mixture. Enclosed electrical components are also more reliable saving on warranty claims. The incidental effect is a match or cigarette lighter is the only ignition source for a refrigerant mixture in the passenger compartment as Razmovski and Rajasekariah found. The consumption of cigarettes over the whole driving population is equivalent to about ten cigarettes a day (Department of Community Services and Health 1990). I will assume that half the cigarettes consumed in cars are lit with the car’s cigarette lighter and would not cause ignition. We then have five potential ignitions per driver per day. That's enough, go look for yourselves. You can choose to believe the EPA if you wish. I have had some very close up and personal contact and dealings with EPA! They are Idiots with an IQ approximately the same as the square root of their shoe size! " Last edited by buffalobillpatrick; 11-13-14 at 09:47 AM..

11-13-14, 09:48 AM	#252
buffalobillpatrick Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Florissant, Colorado Posts: 599 Thanks: 814 Thanked 59 Times in 55 Posts	More Info: Critical temps: R290 = 96.8C, R22 = 96C, R410a = 72.5C One test that I read: R290 Vs R22 Suction Pressure -6% Discharge Pressure -12% Pressure Difference -15% Pressure Ratio -7% Discharge Temperature -16K Volumetric Capacity -14% COP +0.5% HD-5 Propane HD5 grade propane is "consumer grade" propane and is the most widely sold and distributed grade of propane in the U.S. market. HD5 is the highest grade propane available to consumers in the United States and is what propane companies ordinarily sell to their customers. What does HD5 propane mean in terms of specification to an ordinary consumer? It means that the propane is suitable and recommended for engine fuel use, which was the original purpose of the HD5 grade propane specification. HD5 spec propane consists of: Minimum of 90% propane Maximum of 5% propylene - propylene is used in the manufacture of plastics Other gases constitute the remainder (iso-butane, butane, methane, etc.) The HD5 specification is based on "allowable" contents. For instance, 99% propane and 1% propylene is HD5 grade propane the same as 95% propane and 5% propylene is HD5 propane. Although the product consistency and purity is different, both mixtures are considered HD5 propane because they fall within the allowable limits for the product to be named and labeled as such. Note: propylene in with the propane is not necessarily a bad thing for refrigerant, it causes some "glide" which is a small range of temperature at which the mixture Evaporates or Condenses. Same deal with BBQ propane, it has a small amount of Butane and/or Isobutane, which will give some "glide" Last edited by buffalobillpatrick; 11-13-14 at 09:59 AM..

11-13-14, 11:56 AM	#253
AC_Hacker Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 4,004 Thanks: 303 Thanked 723 Times in 534 Posts	The only dispute I have with the guy who "posted on a Pro HVAC site", has to do with his notion that, "*They speak real English, we speak a dialect that is made up from many languages...*" He needs to seriously broaden his field of information. He's living in a cone of delusion if he thinks that "real English" has any purity at all. Otherwise, he knows what he's talking about. -AC __________________ I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker...

11-13-14, 12:50 PM	#254
buffalobillpatrick Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Florissant, Colorado Posts: 599 Thanks: 814 Thanked 59 Times in 55 Posts	A/C , yes I agree, I caught that "real English" B/S also. With some OZ googling: Mobile Air Conditioning Society (MACS) Last edited by buffalobillpatrick; 11-13-14 at 12:57 PM..

11-13-14, 03:28 PM	#255
buffalobillpatrick Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Florissant, Colorado Posts: 599 Thanks: 814 Thanked 59 Times in 55 Posts	Jeff5May, did you use Suniso L320 (5GS) mineral oil (ISO 100) Or SUNISO L319 (4GS) Mineral Refrigeration Oil - 300 SUS (ISO 68) ? Last edited by buffalobillpatrick; 11-13-14 at 04:07 PM..

11-13-14, 04:59 PM	#256
NiHaoMike Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,154 Thanks: 14 Thanked 257 Times in 241 Posts	The oil supplied with the compressor should work fine. __________________ To my surprise, shortly after Naomi Wu gave me a bit of fame for making good use of solar power, Allie Moore got really jealous of her...

11-13-14, 05:23 PM	#257
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,428 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	I used Shell 100 weight because the local supply shop carried shell and nu-calgon brands, and the shell was in stock and cheaper. It's the same grade as the sunoco 5gs. At this level of quality, I would imagine the different brands are very much the same composition. They may differ a few ppm in minor additives (which may or may not make any difference). Last edited by jeff5may; 11-13-14 at 05:41 PM..

11-14-14, 09:56 AM	#258
buffalobillpatrick Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Florissant, Colorado Posts: 599 Thanks: 814 Thanked 59 Times in 55 Posts	http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewc...8&context=icec See pg 2 Last edited by buffalobillpatrick; 11-14-14 at 09:58 AM..

11-15-14, 03:05 PM	#260
buffalobillpatrick Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Florissant, Colorado Posts: 599 Thanks: 814 Thanked 59 Times in 55 Posts	Some good "Ragging" on the Refrigeration Monopoly & why hydrocarbon refrigerant is safe. by: John W Clark HyChill Australia Starts about 2/3 down 1st page & continues on pg2 Refrigerant underground in direct expansion ground source heat pump - GreenBuildingTalk - GreenBuildingTalk - Green Building Forums on Insulating Concrete Forms (ICF), Structural Insulated Panels (SIP), Radiant Heating, Geothermal Heat Pumps, Solar P Interesting read: http://www.epa.gov/greenchill/downlo...frigerants.pdf Last edited by buffalobillpatrick; 11-15-14 at 03:18 PM..