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Old 02-19-17, 05:19 PM   #91
bennelson
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Thanks for the advice, Steve.

Yes, in general, everything you are saying is about what I was thinking on this system.

The advice on shoes sounds good, and I'll take it.

As for the "center-feed" on the Enphase inverters, I had already read the document about it, but I'm not sure how I would actually execute it.

With 24 panels, I need two strings of inverters. That could be 16 panels on one leg and 8 on another, 12 panels on each, or any variation in between. I DO need each circuit going to a 20A breaker.

Looks like the best way to do that will be to bring down each circuit from the roof to a combiner box on the exterior wall of the garage. I am required to have an outside AC disconnect anyways. I'm looking at the Midnite Solar NMPV6 AC Disco. It's a combiner box which can support up to three double-pole (240V) circuits AND it has a big red lockable disconnect. (The big red lever actually physically flips the circuit breakers inside!)
https://www.altestore.com/store/encl...P77xoCD_zw_wcB

By using that, I would only need one box on the side of the building instead of two.

Getting back to center-feeding.... My array will be 8 panels wide by three rows tall. It's pretty easy for me to do one circuit of 8 and the other of 16 because that brings the ends of the cables out from behind the solar panels to a roof junction box. It would simply mount on the end of the racking.
If I wanted to do two circuits of 12 and 12 panels. I'd need the junction box UNDER the solar panel right in the middle of the roof, where I'd never be able to get at it again, and then run conduit from the center of the roof (under the panels) out to the edge, around the edge of the roof, and down the side of the building.
And that's not even center-feeding, it's just making both circuits the same length!

To do a true center-feed, I think I'd have to be running the Enphase trunk cable VERTICAL, or in a "swirl" pattern to get one half the roof to a junction box, centered in the middle of the left half of the roof, repeat on the right half of the roof, then run conduit from both boxes all the over to the edge of the roof. Seems like it gets complicated fast!

I might have to shoot a video with some diagrams to get some input on the best way to do this. Ideally, I'd prefer NOT to have ANY junction boxes or the like on the roof UNDER the panels. If there's EVER ANY reason why I would need to get at one, it would require removing a signfificant portion of the solar panels to get at the box.

Maybe I could have the one circuit be the full 16 panels, but center-feed that one. That way, the junction box could still be on the END of the array NOT under a solar panel. That could feed down to the other box to join the other circuit of 8 panels, and from there to go down the side of the building to the Combination Combiner/AC Disconnect.

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Old 02-20-17, 06:53 PM   #92
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I re-read that tech sheet about center feeding the Micro-Inverter circuits.

The maximum number of inverters on one string is 16. That means that no matter what, I've always needed at least two strings of inverters.

Center-feeding a string of 16 panels cuts Voltage Rise from 1.92V to .51V, as current has that whole squared thing going for it. Cutting the current in half (by splitting the 16 into two 8s) drops the resistance by 4.

Any kind of a serpentine pattern to try to cut the 24 panels into two sets of 12 panels ends up using a lot of extra (expensive) cables and would likely make the junction box in the middle of the roof, highly inaccessible, under a panel I wouldn't be able to easily remove.

A junction box on the END of a piece of racking, at the end of a row of solar panels makes more sense. Power cables for the micro-inverters would simply run horizontal, one to the next to the next, from east to west. At the west end, the flexible Enphase Engage cable would go into a junction box, where it would then be connected to standard wiring. That wiring would then travel inside conduit on the outside of the building to an AC disconnect box.

Each circuit needs to be protected with a 20A AC fuse. Safety, common sense, and my utility require an AC disconnect. This disconnect needs to be on the outside of the building, properly labeled, obvious to use, and lockable in the OFF position.

One way to do this would be to have an outdoor rated circuit breaker box with two fuses inside. The combined output of that would then go to an outdoor rated 30A AC Disconnect box. From there, the wire would go through the wall of the garage, to the main breaker panel and connect through a 30A circuit breaker.

I looked around to see what was available for equipment to do this. It looks like some off-the-shelf-parts from the Home Improvement Store would work fine. However, I found that MidNite Solar makes a nice little box which puts the work of combining circuits AND disconnecting AC all together in one box. It has a large red lever on the outside. I plan to use the MidNite Solar MNPV6-AC Disco, as I then only need a single box on the outside of the garage.

I'd like to minimize the number of junction boxes on the roof. I would really prefer to not have ANY junction boxes under solar panels. However, I'm also on a corner property, where every car driving past will see the solar panels. So, I want the finished install to look as nice as possible. The main road is on the east side of the property (north-south direction of traffic) so at least anything on the west side of my array should be at least partly hidden.

Also, if I DID have a junction box UNDER a panel, if it was an END panel, I could still get at the box by only un-doing ONE solar panel. I would be able to reach from a tall ladder. Anywhere else would be pretty inaccessible.

I was originally hoping to just have one junction box, as low on the roof as possible, for ease of hookup and accessibility. I'm not sure how well I can have the Engage cable traveling vertically. It means that I need extra "drops" for the additional reach, and there's not really anything to secure the cable to. Horizontally, the cable can be secured to the racking with cable clips and zip ties.

I was thinking that maybe for the top row of panels, I have one extra drop on the cable to reach a junction box at the far left of the middle row of panels. Both cables would enter that box (with waterproof connections on the cable) and join together to the standard 12ga 240V wiring inside and through the conduit.

That would then connect to the junction box on the lower row of solar panels. From there, the conduit (with two circuits worth of 12ga wiring inside) would go around the edge of the roof, and hug next to the building back in the under-hang, follow the corner of the building down, and enter the AC Combiner/Disconnect.

From there, the 10ga wiring would go out the back of the disco, through the wall, and to the main breaker panel, entering through a 30A load-side connection. (Running power IN through a breaker that you might normally expect to see as a branch circuit FROM the main power in the box.)
Of course, that breaker would need to be properly labeled with the correct permanent label stating that it's solar power, fed from somewhere else, may be on even when the main breaker is off, etc.

Anyways, please take a look at this drawing and let me know if you have any thoughts on it. I think it's pretty close to what I want, but if there are improvements, I'm open to them.

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Old 02-24-17, 02:26 PM   #93
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I just turned in my paperwork to the Electric Utility for the solar proposal.

I believe that according to the Public Service Commission, they have up to 10 days to review it and get back to me.

I don't see any reason why they would deny me or even ask me to make any changes. I've done my homework, and I think the only thing they might do at all is have their electrical engineer ask me a question or two if they need anything clarified.

I also had two different people poking around in my garage yesterday.

One was the insulation company sales guy. My Dad's construction business uses a certain insulation contractor. He told me that they are so cheap, that I can't go to the big box store and buy insulation and install it myself for less than these guys can.

The insulation contractor suggested to me that the best bang for the buck would be to use fiberglass batts in the 2x4 walls and in the angled roof/ceiling of the upstairs. In the ceiling of the garage/floor of the loft, they would use blown-in insulation. The bottom cord of the engineered trusses is a 2x10. That extra thickness means that more insulation can be put in.

In the upstairs, it's a bit limiting how much insulation can be put in because there's not much flat ceiling. Half of it is the bottom-side of the roof 2x6. So, that can really only get some fiberglass batts in there (plus one of those spacers that lets air flow from the soffit to the ridge vent.)

Blow-in insulation filling the loft floor will act as much like an "attic" to the downstairs as I'll be able to do while still having upstairs space.

An hour after the insulation guy was here, the building inspector, Tom, was here.

I introduced myself to him and said hello. I also mentioned about the Solar system and asked what the Town would require of me in terms of permits for it. (For example if they want a separate electric permit from the rest of the garage electrical.)
He said that was really more of the office guy's department (Mike), and gave me his contact info.

Tom also said that he already found something in the electrical panel that I would have to correct in terms of the details of bonding. I told him that I thought it was correct, but of course would make whatever changes the Building Department would require of me. Mostly, I was holding my tongue, because I was REALLY sure I had it done right, and what he was telling me was wrong, but the last thing I want to do is offend the one guy who can completely derail my construction project.

I went back in the house and let the building inspector finish his Rough Construction and Rough Electrical inspection.

Later in the day, I got a call from the other inspector, Mike. He told me "Tom told me about your panel. Yeah, you have it right, Tom was wrong. Maybe he was just having a bad day. We all mess up sometimes. You're good on your inspections."

I felt pretty good about that. I'm not an electrician (or an engineer, architect, mason, carpenter, etc.) but I read as much as I can and learn all I can. It was a good feeling to know exactly what I was talking about even when a "pro" was telling me the wrong information!

I asked Mike about what he wanted to know about my solar project and in the end, we both decided it was just best to send him over a copy of the same paperwork that I was providing to the Power Utility. (Which was actually one reason why I wanted to be set with the Utility before even speaking to the inspector...)

At this point, I'm waiting on getting an estimate from the insulation company. I probably won't hear back from either the Electric Utility or the Building Inspector about the solar for at least a week.

I also sat down to figure how to get the Utility incentive we have in my area. The STATE of Wisconsin has no incentives for renewable energy*. There is an incentive through participating power utilities. There are some limitations on it. For one thing, the value of that incentive last year would have been $2,400! This year, it will max out for me at $1,200!
It likely won't be available at all next year.

I went through the paperwork and read all the fine print. The highlights of it say that the equipment must be new. (You can't purchase used gear, install it, and get the incentive.) You also have to be on the grid. It's an incentive through the power utility, so I guess that's fair. Interestingly, the 30% tax incentive on Federal U.S. taxes does NOT have that requirement. You could live off-grid in the middle of nowhere, install solar panels and batteries on your off-grid cabin, and still have the federal incentive apply.

There's also some requirements about the solar panels being within a certain number of degrees of south, within a certain range of angles, and have some certain limited amount of shading. i.e. The utility doesn't want to pay you to put up solar panels on the north side of a building under a shade tree.

The last and most important fine print is that the utility incentive requires that your system be professionally installed. It lists that you must have a "licensed and certified contractor" with "all necessary permits".

The other interesting thing is that at this point, the paperwork isn't even to request a rebate check. It's an application to reserve a later request for the incentive.

So, right now, I need to have a signed proposal from a contractor, showing that I've already made at least a $500 down payment. Using that, I can send in paper-work that shows that I intend to later apply for the incentive. Then, once all the work is done, I fill out more paperwork to actually ask for the incentive.

Sound confusing? It kind of is. Even though the reservation application is only a two-page form, it's really ONLY set up for "Hey you, go hire a solar professional, pay him lots of money, then we'll give you a kickback for installing solar."

The problem with that is there's no allowance for a D.I.Y.er or even if you want to purchase your solar panels from one company and your inverter(s) from another! Fortunately, I was able to get in touch with a real live person on the telephone. She (Sarah, at Focus on Energy) was actually very friendly and helpful. I explained my full situation, including that it was the family construction business building the garage, that I already bought 2 solar panels from the guy I was going to buy all my solar panels from, and that yes, I actually DO have training in solar. (OK, officially, it was only one class, but I did get a certificate!)

In the end, we decided that I just need to get my signed proposal from where I'm buying my solar panels. (I already paid him $300 for 2 panels, so I just mailed in another check for $200 towards the rest of the panels so I have my $500 deposit.) I also need to have estimates from the supplier where I'll buy the racking, inverters, and balance of system components. And finally, an estimate from my electrician for the final hook-up. Which is fine, because I was always planning on doing 90% of the solar work myself, and just having the electrician look it over anyways!

So, in the end, it looks like I can get my local incentive for all the parts of the system, but it's a little bit more hassle and paperwork.

(Hope this isn't sounding too "ranty" - I'm learning plenty as I go, but at some times, some of it is a little frustrating. By default, I don't feel good about dealing with any governmental-type agencies. It seems like they can only ever usually either make things really complicated or outright deny whatever it is I'm trying to do!)

So, anyways, the lady at Focus on Energy was pretty nice, and I think we have it all figured out. Essentially, a 6KW solar system with micro-inverters will cost me a little under $10,000 for all the panels, inverters, cabling, components, etc. I'll be able to get a tax credit of about $3,000 on my Federal taxes. (I paid more than $3,000 in taxes last year, so this is all sounding good...)
And I should earn up to $1,200 from the Focus on Energy incentive, which will come as a check 6-8 weeks after project completion. (Although the application needs to be done the sooner the better. The program is known to run out of money by September.)

After incentives, my $10,000 solar system should cost about $5800ish. It will save me about $1,000 per year on electricity. So, simple economic ROI is about 5.8 years to pay for itself. After that, it makes me $1,000 a year

I've also run numbers before on creating your own electricity and using that as motor fuel INSTEAD of buying gasoline. Of course, that depends quite a bit on the cost of gasoline. When I ran those numbers, I used an average price of regular unleaded from a number of years to help even that out. The ROI I got from putting up your own solar system and using it to power an electric car came out to about 3.5 years.

So, for less than the cost of a used car, I can produce electricity for my home and a vehicle for the next 25 years and beyond. Sounds like a good deal to me.




*(Actually not completely true. There is a law that says that renewable energy systems by themselves can not raise the taxable value of your property. i.e. your property taxes can't go up simply because you put up solar panels.)
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Old 02-27-17, 05:11 PM   #94
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Link to blog about this:
Solar Proposal
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Old 02-27-17, 09:03 PM   #95
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Good video.

My power company would not let me use a disconnect switch like yours. It had to be a handle that does a physical disconnect no breakers were allowed in that switch.
Good point EV and solar really helps the payback time. You really can't get much cleaner driving.
We had natural gas heat I installed mini splits so we don't run the natural gas heat anymore that also helps with payback.
I used iron ridge planner even when I did now use their racking the first time. The second panels I bought I used iron ridge racking I really liked it better. It is nice racking. The software planner is great it helped me a lot.

When people ask me about ROI it is not a simple answer as you are in the same boat.
If you only use the electricity offset as the system payoff is pretty easy. I am at just about 5 years. If you add in the gasoline that I don’t have to buy because my EV car. Then add in natural gas I don’t use I will have my payoff just over 2 years.
The mini splits had to be paid for so do you add that cost in with the solar cost. I am at 4 years payback. This is only because the DIY installs.
Any way you look at it makes since all the way around. The environment is happier I am so much more self-efficient I have always loved solar power and I am so happy the cost and incentives have made it makes since to install it cost wise.
I talk to people that want to put a 10K system in but they say I will wait until the prices come down more.
When that happens the incentives will be phased out you could end up paying more for the system.

You will not start saving and paying the system off. I think right now the cost of waiting is more expensive. This still has to work for you and your family. If you have already decided you want to jump just think about it…

Sorry for the long post but it is exciting seeing others get solar and combining it with a EV.
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Old 02-28-17, 10:57 PM   #96
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My outdoor switch is an air conditioner disconnect switch, which allows a physical disconnect that can be 'tagged out' by allowing emergency services from placing the removabe component of the switch elsewhere. There is also a disconnect switch as part of the Solaredge inverter in the garage as well as the 40 amp breaker in the service panel. Disconnecting any of the three is NEC quick disconnect compliant and all of the outputs combined in the string drop to 1 volt per optimizer in very short order. I think the air conditioner type disconnect route is the cheapest and easiest method of disconnect for systems that drop the string at the same time.
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Old 03-01-17, 10:30 AM   #97
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edited 3/1 2:30 pm central time

Ben,

Simply superb video. Clear, good visuals added in and understandable. But as the former university professor . . . . . let me suggest a few things. My former grad students complained all the time, but now thank me!

Needs better presentation of system power. You quote a 24 panel system, each panel of 260 watts, as a 6 kW system. Yes it is, but a quick discussion of name plate, STC (lab conditions) vs. PTC (expected reality would be helpful).

Remember that the PTC is ~ 90% of STC so your panels only put out 234 watts in real life conditions. Dust, snow, etc. further reduces this.


Why Enphase? You might explain the reasons you choose this system (as have I with many installations).

I feel that Enphase simply has the most reliable, bullet proof system out there. In all the systems I have done, only one return and it came with a new replacement with postage paid return. Others claim they are cheaper, but don't include the costs for the home monitoring in their comparisons.


Grounding. This discussion is completely absent and is critical.

Typical NEC code calls for a solid copper wire (8G?) from one point to a single 8 foot ground rod. It is code, but inadequate. I FAR prefer to ground to each rail and to use #4 braided copper to two 8 foot copper clad rods about 6 feet apart. This ground wire needs to make "soft turns" with NO sharp bends. Try to get the straightest path to the ground rods (choose their location carefully) from the roof. Sadly, this does not always "look good", but you want the absolute least resistance pathway to ground.

Here is another trick. On each 240 V wire input to the circuit breaker, coil up your wire in a loop of ~ 6 inches in diameter, maybe 10-12 turns. Tie this together with tape. This is an "rf choke" and for the cost of maybe 3 feet of extra wire, you virtually block all high frequency pulses into your home system. Lightening is a high frequency pulse. The choke does nothing, zilch at 60 Hz, so there is little money (a bit of time) to do this. The combo of the two above provide a very low impedance path to ground and a high impedance lightening block into your home and grid. Lightening is your systems enemy.


Choice of panel power to microinverter power. This too is absent and I would have chosen the less expensive Enphase M215 (which pumps out 230 W) vs the more expensive M250 (which is limited to 250 watts). Your panels, with a STC rating of 260 will only put out some 90% or about 234 watts and would be a far better match for the M215. Yes, they guarantee 215 W, but the hardware revisions done over the last few years have increased the power output to 230 W. Rather than go through the expensive certification process, they stick with the "old" M215 nomenclature and power output guarantee.

I prefer to have clipping. Clipping refers to the power output of the microinverter vs the power of the panel. For example, I put in a lot of M215's with 260 W panels. On some days,
the normal parabolic peak power output, seen at solar noon, is replaced with a flat line. This is "clipping". This is far preferred to have a system the other way where the panels never get to the inverter power (your case). Enphase has a big write up on this as a system with ~10% clipping outproduces by 10-20% more power than a system perfectly matched. On a M250 a perfect match would be a 280 W panel (90% of 280 STC = 252 W PTC). With a M250, I would choose a panel of ~ 300-310 W. On the other hand, you got a good deal on your 260 W panels. Note renvu.com has 300 W panels for about the same price per W.


Right now (March 1, 2017) renvu.com has Enphase M215's at $93 each, but they sell them all the time for $80 (cost per W ~ $0.40). Just call and "dicker". Costs of microinverters are going down fast, as are panels, but less so on racking. These prices are of of March 1, 2017 and I expect Enphase system 6 microinverter cost/W at $0.30 or less by the end of this year.

Soon, the M215's will be phased out, but for right now they are the best bang for the buck combined with 260 W panels - IF you have lots of roof area. The new IE6 microinvers will be sold for for less than the M215's by year end. Then, I expect the M250's to be selling at less than the new IE6 microinverters by year end ~ $0.05 - $0.10 less. For right now, if roof area is an issue then think of the S280 inverter with 320 W panels. More expensive, but if you don't have the roof area, and you need power, then this is the solution.


Lastly, I would discuss better how to do the mid string feeds. The mid string junction is something that you will never have to service. And if you do, it is simple to raise up one of the panels (especially on your small system). If you put the mid string disconnects in the middle of the string, it is easy to bring each string through the roof and have your junction box (with circuit breakers) up there. THEN bring one heavy cable out to the exterior near your breaker box for the manual disconnect. This also looks a LOT neater on the roof as there is less "clutter". I hate roof clutter and get frustrated when I see poorly executed and installed solar systems.

I too love the Midnight Solar PV6 disconnect switch that integrates turning breakers on and off. But several power companies I have worked with INSISTED that a manual turn off box HAD to be used. I physically showed then the Midnight Solar switch and they just shook their heads NO. You just can't change stupid, but we all know that sharing that just doesn't help.

Overall your video is so superb that a lot of people will watch it and I wanted to give you an opportunity to edit just a few parts.

I hope that my critique will be understood in that light and not a criticism of your excellent construction, roofing and planning.

Best regards,


Steve
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Old 03-01-17, 04:37 PM   #98
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"Enphase has a big write up on this as a system with ~10% clipping outproduces by 10-20% more power than a system perfectly matched."

How? Say a panel with a M215, which you said is capable of 230 watts output, is producing 255 watts and clipping at 230 watts. You are producing 90% of the power. Where are you making up for the loss? Do the Enphase micros lose significant efficiency at lower power inputs with the higher output models or do the higher output models no turn on until a higher input is available than the lower input models?

I understand the cost efficiency calculations of inverter undersizing, but usually output doesn't change enough to say that the inverters would produce more power when put in a position for frequent clipping, not to mention 10-20% more power, I don't see how unless there is some sort of deficiency in the larger Enphase inverters that I'm not aware of.
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Old 03-01-17, 08:03 PM   #99
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Ben, I will try to find the write up on their site.

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Old 03-06-17, 08:08 PM   #100
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Ben, can I use that video on my site.
You missed your calling. Nice job.

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