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Old 06-08-13, 05:53 PM   #11
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Although I feel metal roofing is best and is effectively a once-in-a-lifetime event, good quality asphalt roofing is a twice-in-a-lifetime event at half the price, and I like the quiet.

I installed the only no-extra-cost Energy Star non-white roof detailed IN THIS THREAD. There may be other no/low cost options available now, but I am pleased since I couldn't have a metal roof and it made a huge difference in the heat.

I would assume that except for standing-seam metal roofs, an asphalt roof is easiest and most flexible for mounting solar collectors. Anyone have comparative mounting experience on different roof types?

Craig

Problem with singles is in 20 years when you need to put on next one the cost is double the first time because of inflation

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Old 06-08-13, 06:09 PM   #12
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Good point on the land fill angle.

Also, at least where I live, the roofs never last to their guarantee date... the guarantee turns out to be a "pro-rated" thing with very little in the kitty at the end of the actual roof life. And then there is the inflation factor... but the pro-rated allowance somehow doesn't know anything about inflation.

Who thought this stuff up?

But what really galls me is that we are sending an enormous stream of material to land fill... and much of that waste will NEVER decompose. But we regularly roof our homes with material that is so impermanent.

What gives here?

-AC
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Old 06-08-13, 06:26 PM   #13
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Problem with singles is in 20 years when you need to put on next one the cost is double the first time because of inflation
Hopefully, we will invest the half not spent on other green projects or get at least the 2-4% per year that it takes to offset inflation by investing it or paying down debt we would pay interest on!
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Old 06-08-13, 06:34 PM   #14
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I couldn't believe my eyes this spring a century home with slate roofing being removed and asphalt shingles being installed. What a sin. Replacing a slate roof that had stood 100 yrs. to a asphalt shingle that might last 15 yrs. Why wouldn't they just repair that beautiful slate.???


Randen
NOOOOOO! My grandmother had a beautiful slate roof on her historic register house. It had lasted almost 100 years, but it was difficult to find someone to repair it. Someone renovated her house after her death and tore the slate off and put down asphalt.

I'm all for the cost to benefit ratio of asphalt, but that IS a sin! AC, isn't there a quote from The First Book of Renovations about this? "Thou shalt not...."
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Old 06-08-13, 08:27 PM   #15
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I wonder if we should run the numbers?? If we borrowed the money to replace the roofing with a metal roof would it make economic sense. Would anyone out there have lived in a house long enough to have installed professionally consecutive roofs in asphalt and remember what they had spent?? Verses a good idea of what a metal roof would have cost. Over time would the metal roof make sense even with borrowing money??.

For sure the third install should completly make economic sense.

Would the value of the home increase with the metal roof??

Yes I like the AC Hacker The First Book of Renovations: Thou shall not

1/ Under Insulate
2/ Allow air infiltration
3/ Not take full advantage of solar exposure.

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Old 06-08-13, 09:34 PM   #16
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I love my Decra metal tile roof. Two weeks ago, I dismantled nearly half of my metal roof on the second floor to install 102 brackets to mount 6 rails for a 4400W PV array (20 panels). After mounting a row of 17 brackets (Creotecc Tile Hooks), we put the Decra tiles back on top of the tile hooks with minor modifications to each tile allow the brackets to get out from under a Decra tile. The result is a PV bracket with the ability to withstand 303lbs of uplift per bracket, and no holes facing the sky.

My Decra stone coated metal tile roof was installed in 2004 to replace a 43 year old concrete tile roof in hurricane prone South Florida. Every house I own from now on will get a metal tile roof. As for rain noise, the stone coat breaks up the rain drops just like an asphalt shingle. There is nothing "tinny" sounding about my roof when it rains. My neighbor got the Decra Shake version after a subsequent hurricane damaged his asphalt shingle roof. When the roof was first installed, my wife and I were surprised how much quieter the stone coated tile was than the white painted concrete tile had been.

Decra products carry a UL Class 4 hail rating, and it's 26 gauge material. You can buy it at Menards, if you want to do it yourself.
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Old 06-09-13, 05:00 PM   #17
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Hopefully, we will invest the half not spent on other green projects or get at least the 2-4% per year that it takes to offset inflation by investing it or paying down debt we would pay interest on!
MMT,

I actually think that running the numbers is a very good idea.

I have heard more than once, that the real inflation rate is significantly higher than the inflation rate that is published. It seems that in figuring inflation rate, if certain expense category get 'out of line', they are considered 'outliers', and they are removed from the statistical mix... things like housing and fuel, for instance.

The real inflation rate I have heard quoted is around 17%.

I have mentioned this to the occasional person in the banking industry that I come in contact with, and none of them have ever flinched... not one.

So if you're going to whip up a spreadsheet to compare various roofing choices, you just might want to drop 17% into the interest cell and see how things stack up then.

-AC
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Old 06-09-13, 06:54 PM   #18
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Inflation in the US may be a bit higher than the official numbers because of adjustments to how different categories are weighted and some careful fudging, but there is no way we have anything close to 17% inflation. Simply applying the rule of 72, that would mean prices double every 4.2 years-on everything!

Most are too young to have dealt with it(even me), but high inflation and Stagflation into the 70's with 10%+ inflation, 19%+ mortgage interest rates, and 21%+ prime rates crippled the economy and people's wallets. Ever notice that almost all homes built in the 70's and many before are simple and tiny? That's not what we have now, no matter how much anyone wants to debate our nation's fiscal policy.

Some things have skyrocketed, like petroleum and some metals, but overall official inflation has averaged between 2-4% for the past 30 years. The most pessimistic variation from the official numbers that I've found HERE shows inflation at 12% during 2007-2008 while the Fed's CPI-U showed 6%. Even "burgernomics", the humorous comparison of the 10 year running average price of a Big Mac to nations' official inflation numbers, is only 1.5% higher than the official numbers.

But, back to roofing:

Asphalt shingles get a big black eye in the court of opinion, but more so than they deserve. We should all strive to make sure we are weighing decisions based on actual facts, not fear of potential problems or "common" knowledge, just like my posts on flammable refrigerants. Here are some common beliefs to consider:



1: "Asphalt shingles are just landfill" Asphalt shingles shouldn't go in the landfill any more than cars should. Many companies SUCH AS THIS ONE and the roofers they partner with, recycle the material. The asphalt used in shingles is higher grade than what is usually used in roads, so pavement plants usually pay a premium for the recycled material. They have many other uses, too-check out Asphalt Roofing Shingles 101.

It's a shame that it took from the dawn of the industrial revolution til the 70's for environmental awareness to be common enough to notice. Same shame that we haven't been recycling lots of things until now and that we have so far to go towards living nice lives within what our planet can handle.



2: "Asphalt shingles never last and are at best a 15 year option." True, for heat absorbing, cheaply made 3 tab builder grade crap installed by non-thorough or inexperienced crews. Thicker or architectural grade shingles hold up vastly longer, particularly when installed properly instead of how they usually are!

The biggest factor shortening the lives of asphalt shingles is micro-cracking and granule loss due to dramatic temperature swings. If the surface changes temp 80F+ degrees twice a day plus every time the cloud cover changes, no wonder most shingles, which only reflect 3-8% of heat hitting them, don't last! The cool roofs will be a completely different story because they minimize the greatest destructive force affecting a roof. I'll report on mine as years go by.

I have family members whose asphalt shingles on their house were still going strong at 40+ years. They were good quality shingles in a light color, installed properly (he built the house himself), and with some tree shading thrown in for good measure.

I have also seen lots of metal roofs whose coatings are deteriorating and don't look very good within 15 years of installation.



3: "I get a big discount on my insurance if I put a metal roof on." Yes, you do. The reason is they know they will never have to pay for damage to your roof for anything short of the roof coming off. There are specific clauses in policies stating they will not pay for cosmetic damage. Since roof replacements due to wind damage (from cheap, poorly installed shingles) and hail (from pockmarks causing future leaks) are one of their biggest claim areas, they offer discounts for products preventing these types of claims.

Architectural grade or composite shingles, installed properly, have 130+MPH wind warranties from the manufacturers including labor and disposal. UL 2218 Class 4 rated shingles prevent damage from all but the largest hailstones. These shingles get the same or nearly the same discounts as metal roofs.

A metal roof won't leak due to hail impacts, but it WILL dent. If a big storm pockmarks your $15k+ roof like a golf ball the day after installation, your insurance will do nothing, and your house will live with it for the next 50+ years or until you pony up the $$ to replace it yourself.

How well can asphalt hold up? I found a "Mythbusters" style video on destructive testing from GAF for their shingles HERE. The roof even withstood explosion blast testing that demolished the house structure!



4: "The warranty isn't worth much." Sure, shingles (and batteries, and tires, and house paint, and other roofing types too, and....) usually don't last quite as long as their warranty, there isn't any warranty adjustment for inflation, and you have to jump through hoops to make a claim. In my experience, most products seem to last around 75% of their warranty.

New shingle construction methods are making better, longer lasting shingles. The shingle warranties have gone up to match. My CertainTeed Landmark shingles come with a lifetime warranty to me (prorated warranty credit never drops below 20%) and a 40 year prorated warranty to future owners, as described IN THIS LINK. Full coverage and labor is included for 10 years, and most of their products include tearoffs, flashing work, and disposal, too.

5: "Asphalt shingles cost more in the long run and have more environmental impact." Sure, there is more labor/travel involved in recycling the material since asphalt won't last as long as metal, but it is just part of the total lifecycle cost, just moved from the front end to the back end.

Is the environmental impact of manufacture/delivery/recycling plus the levelized cost over time for asphalt more or less than for other roof options? Good question! I don't know the complete answer, but I'll bet it is much closer than most realize.

Metal shingles have to have the ore mined/processed and use higher heat methods in manufacturing. A roof full of asphalt shingles uses remnants from petroleum refining that would have been made anyway due to the other uses that drive petroleum demand, then thrown away or used less efficiently.

The same new construction methods that make the shingles last longer means less environmental impact to make them, too.


Metal roofs have an advantage in fire prone areas, but all roofing must be fire rated, as described at INSPECTAPEDIA.

Is asphalt roofing the best? NO! Is it the best bang for the buck with an acceptable environmental footprint? When done right, probably! There isn't a very big price increase from the cheapest shingles which give asphalt a bad rap to pretty decent ones.

I would love a slate or sound-dampened metal roof, but I looked at the cost over time, the fact that very very few of us ever use roofwater for drinking rather than irrigation, the likelihood that I would want to revamp my solar collectors and their mountings as technology progresses before a metal roof would wear out, etc. I'm not allowed to have anything but asphalt by my HOA, but I still would have decided on asphalt based on what I have learned thus far.

One caveat for older homes: The Northeast Recycling Council warns, "Since recycling of asbestos-tainted materials is prohibited by federal law, processors must test shingle loads in accordance with state and local requirements." Some recycling companies may charge you a fee to cover the testing costs.

Read more: How to Recycle Asphalt Roof Shingles | eHow How to Recycle Asphalt Roof Shingles | eHow

I would love for others to chime in with measurable results/research comparing the total cost of ownership, installation ease, and environmental impacts of well-made Energy Star asphalt shingles and other roof types. I am very interested in the Decra metal tiles where2 installed-they sound great! Where2, how much was your roof installed per square?

Let the fun begin!

Craig
The MMT
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Old 06-15-13, 04:11 PM   #19
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Craig,

I have some information here that may have you think twice about the problems with metal roofing (para three above)

We have a large livestock barn (90x60 feet) with a plywood roof and 26G "R" panels on it (3/12 pitch). It is just adjacent to the two homes with 3-tab. It got the same hail, but there is FAR less damage.

There is some denting on some of the raised "rib" sections, but there is absolutely no damage where the hail hit on the flat areas of the panels. I asked the adjuster about this and he said that having the flat part of the "R" panel directly on top of the plywood is what allows it to be so sturdy.

I was thinking of AC's comment (to run PEX pipe under the metal roof to capture solar water heat), but it would then negate having the flat section of the "R" panel flat against the roof. But I could run PEX pipe in the raised rib sections as that channel space would allow me to run the pipe in there.

Does anyone know how high a temp PEX pipe can get? I would probably employ a "drain back" solar hot water heat system that I put up on another home. I do know that standard black polyethylene (PE) pipe melts fairly easily.

My policy will immediately give me 30% right now for cosmetic damage to the barn metal roof and they will allow me to get a full replacement on the entire metal roof so long that I pay the deductible. They rated the roof as a 50 year roof and the depreciation (5 year old roof) is only 10%.

Here is the VERY neat part. Only about 25% of the barn "R" panels have any significant denting on the "ribs". The adjuster told me to take off ALL the panels, save the good ones (about 75% of them) and reinstall the panels on one of the other houses. He suggested using silicone RTV glue in the holes on the lower panel screw holes and then putting new screws with neoprene gaskets through the already drilled holes in the top panel (where they overlap).

The length of the panels, on the barn roof (peak to eave) are longer than the peak to eave on the other two houses. So it will need to be trimmed - not too bad for almost "free" panels.

This removal must be done carefully, but he said any good metal roofer could do this. Also it is critical to have the panels stored carefully. The other roof (on homes) do not have to get a "tear off" (only one layer of shingles) and I get to recycle a lot of really good metal.

Any ideas on the utility of this?

You are correct to get a really good paint job and some of the better metal roofing manufacturers have a "galvalume" process that is fade resistant/rust resistant for 50 years. Secondly, a lot of the really good paint finishes incorporate tiny glass beads that reflect the solar heat (insolation) and have a very high reflectance (cooler roof).

Bottom line . . . I may have a solution to my roofing problems!!

Steve
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Old 06-15-13, 09:53 PM   #20
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I would love for others to chime in with measurable results/research comparing the total cost of ownership, installation ease, and environmental impacts of well-made Energy Star asphalt shingles and other roof types. I am very interested in the Decra metal tiles where2 installed-they sound great! Where2, how much was your roof installed per square?
I can't really say how much it was in 2004 dollars on a per square basis. The tear off, and disposal of the existing concrete tile was included in the price, along with a tear off of a hot tar flat roofed garage that received roll roofing. I have an odd 1960's two story house that required much more time spent fabricating custom flashing than your ordinary ranch style house or house with a hip roof. By 2004, the building code, in my hurricane prone area, had progressed to requiring N&TT every ~4" along the edges, and ~6" in the field on the underlayment. I expect that drives up the labor cost to about double most areas of the country on just installing the underlayment. In my case, living within 2 miles of the atlantic ocean, there are an average of five screws per panel. I'm sure you could get by with less, when you're not in a 150mph wind zone.

If you want to figure it yourself: Each panel covers 14-1/2"x50", each panel currently costs $17 (in 2013 dollars). In addition to the panels, there are round ridge pieces at $7 each for all the peaks, and gable edges. You'll also need a bunch of 2x2 lumber (battens). The 50" dimension of each panel sits on a 2x2 batten which is nailed to the roof deck. The panels are attached to the battens with a #9x1-1/2" galvanized roofing screw (500 screws = $33).

I have successfully tested a prototype CPVC thermal collector under my "arctic blue" decra tile. The 10 sq ft prototype collector was providing +1°F for every circulation pass the water made. My tile panels run ~140°F on a sunny summer day at 26.5°N. At some point, I'll make a copper thermal collector prototype, because I think the delta T would be better with a more conductive metal pipe, rather than CPVC.

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