Propane (R-290) for heat pumps? - Page 6

Xringer · 05-21-11, 08:02 AM

YouTube - ‪Fire - Propane @ -42 Deg. C‬&rlm;

Yeah, it does..

Weed Dog · 05-21-11, 10:02 AM

The fallout shelter!

The old drywell for the cistern overflow...that's buried out in the yard. Hmmm, need access for maintenance...

Xringer · 06-18-11, 05:22 PM

Some more Propane info at:

HyChill Refrigerants - Manufacturers of Hydrocarbon Refrigeration Gases, HC's, HR12, ER12 - CFCs, HFCs, HCFCs, hydroflurocarbons, R12, R22/502, R290, R600a, and R134a Replacements

Geo NR Gee · 06-20-11, 07:21 PM

How do you know how much oil to put in with the propane on a R-22 system?

Xringer · 06-20-11, 08:48 PM

I've seen stuff like this, on the web..
"You should drain the compressor entirely, either through the suction or discharge
(Depending on your compressor, Ive had one that I had to drain through the suction)
and then fill it with the same amount of mineral oil."

I've read that R-290 is a 'drop-in' replacement for R-22, but I've also read that
systems need less R-290 to get good performance.
The amount of oil used might depend on the size of the compressor crankcase etc.

My gut feel is, you would need to use about the same amount of oil,
as was used with the R-22 refrigerant.

Geo NR Gee · 06-20-11, 10:55 PM

Since we are starting with a used unit, how would one determine what it used to use?

Xringer · 06-20-11, 11:31 PM

One guy wrote me, that he just pumped in the Propane, didn't add any oil at all.
He said the old oil was still in the unit! And, it was still working.

If there is no oil at all still in the unit, I think you are going to need find
what is called for when the unit was installed. System specs.

Check this out:

Oil Charge Lubricant with Refrigerant for Air Conditioners : FM Distributing, Inc.

"The 4oz aerosol can contains enough Oil Charge to charge one 3 to 4lb system.
These cans contain 2oz of oil and 2oz of Enviro-Safe Refrigerant."

Humm, my Sanyo uses 4.3 pounds of R-410a, so it would might need 2oz of oil.?.
Likely use about 2 to 2.5 pounds of Propane too..

Xringer · 07-11-11, 12:50 PM

YouTube - ‪Solar Water Heating - Part 3: Heat Pumps‬&rlm;

The water is pumped from outdoors. So, if you were to use Propane,
and had the unit located so any leak would roll downhill away from your basement..?.
That could be pretty safe..

I like the idea of recirculator loop (heat booster) they added on..
I think it's an add-on, otherwise they would have put it inside.

I'm just guessing, but it seems like they might have a few gallons
in the exchanger+ a small tank.

Found some links:
http://www.itssolar.co.za/domesticheatpumps.php
Some docs are there in pdfs.

Xringer · 07-11-11, 01:20 PM

I was just thinking about how to make one of these..
The problem of cold weather freezing the in/out H2O pipes solid is a major worry.

Idea #1.
Heating wire under the insulation, controlled by a freeze sensor.
(I have some of these installed indoors already).

Idea #2.
Plan A is to circulate the ASHP hot water inside, into the water-jacket of my HS Tarm boiler.
I would use the existing (downstairs) baseboard circulator pump.

This pump would be controlled by a differential? control box, with a freeze detect mode.
I think the control box should be 'smart', using a timer with an on-demand mode.
I figure keeping the boiler above 90F at night would be ok..

If the outdoor coil got down near 38F, the pump would turn on and dump some warm
water into the outdoor coil. Until it warmed up..

If it got down under 10F for a long time, (ASHP could not be used) the oil burner
could be used to keep the water jacket warm. (Or, I could toss in a log).

jroode32 · 08-12-11, 07:14 AM

Xringer,

I had watched that video about a month ago during my research on R-290 it looks to me like he is using good ole barbeque grill gas, I am wondering if the "maxi fridge" is a more pure form of it or better "blend" of propane/butane or is really the exact same stuff?

Thank You
JRoode32

05-21-11, 08:02 AM	#51
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Does it ever get too cold to BBQ? YouTube - ‪Fire - Propane @ -42 Deg. C‬&rlm; Yeah, it does..

05-21-11, 10:02 AM	#52
Weed Dog Lurking Renovator Join Date: May 2011 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Where to locate the GSHP for safety The fallout shelter! The old drywell for the cistern overflow...that's buried out in the yard. Hmmm, need access for maintenance...

07-11-11, 12:50 PM	#58
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Hot water heat pump YouTube - ‪Solar Water Heating - Part 3: Heat Pumps‬&rlm; The water is pumped from outdoors. So, if you were to use Propane, and had the unit located so any leak would roll downhill away from your basement..?. That could be pretty safe.. I like the idea of recirculator loop (heat booster) they added on.. I think it's an add-on, otherwise they would have put it inside. I'm just guessing, but it seems like they might have a few gallons in the exchanger+ a small tank. Found some links: http://www.itssolar.co.za/domesticheatpumps.php Some docs are there in pdfs. Last edited by Xringer; 07-11-11 at 12:56 PM.. Reason: Found some links

06-18-11, 05:22 PM	#53
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Some more Propane info at: HyChill Refrigerants - Manufacturers of Hydrocarbon Refrigeration Gases, HC's, HR12, ER12 - CFCs, HFCs, HCFCs, hydroflurocarbons, R12, R22/502, R290, R600a, and R134a Replacements

06-20-11, 07:21 PM	#54
Geo NR Gee Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Seattle Posts: 326 Thanks: 109 Thanked 23 Times in 18 Posts	How do you know how much oil to put in with the propane on a R-22 system?

06-20-11, 08:48 PM	#55
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	I've seen stuff like this, on the web.. "You should drain the compressor entirely, either through the suction or discharge (Depending on your compressor, Ive had one that I had to drain through the suction) and then fill it with the same amount of mineral oil." I've read that R-290 is a 'drop-in' replacement for R-22, but I've also read that systems need less R-290 to get good performance. The amount of oil used might depend on the size of the compressor crankcase etc. My gut feel is, you would need to use about the same amount of oil, as was used with the R-22 refrigerant.

06-20-11, 10:55 PM	#56
Geo NR Gee Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Seattle Posts: 326 Thanks: 109 Thanked 23 Times in 18 Posts	Since we are starting with a used unit, how would one determine what it used to use?

06-20-11, 11:31 PM	#57
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	One guy wrote me, that he just pumped in the Propane, didn't add any oil at all. He said the old oil was still in the unit! And, it was still working. If there is no oil at all still in the unit, I think you are going to need find what is called for when the unit was installed. System specs. Check this out: Oil Charge Lubricant with Refrigerant for Air Conditioners : FM Distributing, Inc. "The 4oz aerosol can contains enough Oil Charge to charge one 3 to 4lb system. These cans contain 2oz of oil and 2oz of Enviro-Safe Refrigerant." Humm, my Sanyo uses 4.3 pounds of R-410a, so it would might need 2oz of oil.?. Likely use about 2 to 2.5 pounds of Propane too..

07-11-11, 01:20 PM	#59
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	I was just thinking about how to make one of these.. The problem of cold weather freezing the in/out H2O pipes solid is a major worry. Idea #1. Heating wire under the insulation, controlled by a freeze sensor. (I have some of these installed indoors already). Idea #2. Plan A is to circulate the ASHP hot water inside, into the water-jacket of my HS Tarm boiler. I would use the existing (downstairs) baseboard circulator pump. This pump would be controlled by a differential? control box, with a freeze detect mode. I think the control box should be 'smart', using a timer with an on-demand mode. I figure keeping the boiler above 90F at night would be ok.. If the outdoor coil got down near 38F, the pump would turn on and dump some warm water into the outdoor coil. Until it warmed up.. If it got down under 10F for a long time, (ASHP could not be used) the oil burner could be used to keep the water jacket warm. (Or, I could toss in a log).

08-12-11, 07:14 AM	#60
jroode32 Lurking Renovator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Alabama Posts: 11 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Xringer, I had watched that video about a month ago during my research on R-290 it looks to me like he is using good ole barbeque grill gas, I am wondering if the "maxi fridge" is a more pure form of it or better "blend" of propane/butane or is really the exact same stuff? Thank You JRoode32