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Old 02-26-11, 11:04 AM   #601
okpiddler
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I can not wait to read thru this whole thing. Hacker you are one hard working, driven Dude!

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Old 02-27-11, 12:01 AM   #602
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Guys, I am Stripered with the you tube video. Glad hacker enlightened me about this forum! You guys are way more DIY friendly than the forum I studied for 3 months at the end of 09 before I did anything.
okpiddler,

Welcome to the conversation.

I really like what I saw on your YT video. Great work.

If you could go into some details both in words & with photos, it would be absolutely excellent for everyone here. I'd like to know details about how you determined the sizes of various components, and how close your original estimates were.

Anything you can share with us is most welcome including any mistakes you made and also false assumptions you learned to overcome, too. They're all part of the process and sometimes the mistakes are the most important part of the story.

I know that the hydronic floor part and the heat pump part are really a whole unit, but I'm trying to keep separate threads for each. I can already tell that there's a lot of information on each.

You are in the Heat Pump thread now...

The DIY Hydronic Floor Heating thread begins HERE.

Sometimes it's not so easy to keep them separate, and sometimes the information about both needs to be considered together to make sense.

Use your own judgment.

Best Regards,

-AC_Hacker
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Old 02-27-11, 03:00 AM   #603
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Yes, the system does need to be balanced.

But out of curiosity, does your little booklet also have pictures of how a homemade heat pump should be built, or is the picture that is in the booklet meant to discourage all readers from building their own?

I have noticed that HVAC folks that are 'in the trade' treat real DIY people very poorly.

If the word got out that it is possible to make your own heat pump, some of those HVAC folks could be looking for another job.
Oh, Wojciech Oszczak's book is great for anyone who wants to actually understand how a heat pump works and why it is more efficient than other ways of heating a house. It's got lots of info on things like: how to size and balance the system, what types of heat sources are good, how and where a ground loop should be made and how to do it yourself, what a heat pump is made of and what role each part plays, etc.


There are lots of graphs and tables, a map of Poland showing average temperatures at different depths, how those temperatures vary during the year. There is also information about which house-side system is best for efficiency (hydronic floors). The author often stresses how easy it is to do each part of the system yourself. One chapter is about the most common errors in hp installations (both commercial and DIY), mostly about how important it is to have a balanced system, and when and how certain errors can be corrected. Another chapter is pure DIY: pictures of homemade heat pumps and ground loops, a list of parts to use (maker and model#), etc.


The author stresses that making a GSHP yourself isn't that hard, while it is much cheaper than a commercial installation and can be better tailored to the house's requirements. He is very helpful and gives his contact info. He was very nice when I phoned him.

The main differences between the book and this thread are:
  • The info in the book is more organized.
  • AC_Hacker showed how to make your own drilling set-up - the first I've seen. All info on DIY ground source that I've seen until now only tell you how to bury the tubes in a horizontal loop, no deeper than 1-2 meters. This is very important, since drilling is often the most expensive part of a GSHP system.
  • AC gives more info on actually putting each part together - soldering, filling the system up, etc.
  • This thread shows how the system was built step by step - AC_Hacker shows not only what works, but also what not to do. This is just as valuable as the info in the book, since it shows firsthand everything that needs to be done (or not done), not just a case study of why such-and-such system didn't work as expected.
  • Other HP builders also pitch in to this thread with info from their experiences.
  • This thread is in English, which makes it available to a much larger audience.
  • AC didn't give out his phone number

In summary, I would say that AC's thread and Oszczak's book complement each other. It is possible to build your own GSHP using info from only either one or the other, but reading both made me soooooo much smarter

Thanks, AC_Hacker
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Old 02-27-11, 09:31 AM   #604
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AC I certainly have a lot of info to give, it may take me awhile and I will pobably not be very detailed at first. You guys will have to ask questions to get it all out of me for sure.
My first mistake was not even thinking about energy efficiency when we built the house 5 yrs ago. I should have known, just to busy doing all the other stuff. I have had some refrigeration classes back in 94 while laid off from my Aircraft Mechanic job. The only thing I did was put the tubing in the slab.
A litttle more of my background, or bragging! I worked for myself for a short time on many different machines with refrigerant in them. Cars, Ice makers, refrigerators, walk in coolers, houses and one turboprop plane. I have added R290 to a little R12 in a car and it worked great. I made four different HX for my home condensing unit before I got it right and put the heat from our house into my inground pool. I sold that house and will have to do it again with our new house when the Trane warranty is up. I have an EPA refrig. lic.
Yes, anyone with some self confidence and will can make a cheap HP especially if the house is near a pond or a lot of water or a well or if they have access to a back hoe and it is not too rocky. Especially if your options are only propane or Elec. for heat. It is way cheaper to move heat around than it is to buy energy.
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Old 02-27-11, 02:21 PM   #605
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I've been searching through through the posts on this forum looking for refrigeration engineering book recommendations and not finding any except for yours on the Oszczak's book. Unfortunately I don't read Polish. Does any one have any book recommendations in English, or better yet a reading list? For background, I'm an engineer, and am comfortable reading technical books. The DIY chapter described in Oszczak's book sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks to all, esp. AC_Hacker for this forum.
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Old 02-27-11, 03:21 PM   #606
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Sorry okpiddler if my comment was at all off base. Your video on your water to water DIY HP so much interests me that couldn't help when you went over to your excellent TV set up that I could only think back to the HP, back to the HP. Glad we could get you into the discussion.
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Old 02-27-11, 06:47 PM   #607
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I've been searching through through the posts on this forum looking for refrigeration engineering book recommendations and not finding any except for yours on the Oszczak's book. Unfortunately I don't read Polish. Does any one have any book recommendations in English, or better yet a reading list? For background, I'm an engineer, and am comfortable reading technical books. The DIY chapter described in Oszczak's book sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks to all, esp. AC_Hacker for this forum.
ReedB,

Welcome aboard!

I'm looking for a good engineering-oriented refrigeration book also, so if you come up with anything, please let me know.

In the meantime, here is a link to a refrigeration catalog that was posted by Vlad. It's a parts catalog, but in the catalog there is information that is useful for sizing components in a refrigeration system.

Also here is a list of downloadable documents (provided earlier in the thread, but worth repeating) that provide the basic conceptual information for understanding refrigeration systems...
My goal in this thread is to put forth the information required to successfully build an efficient homemade heat pump, and explain it in a way that an extensive technical background is not required... a technical background can't really hurt, however.

So, ReedB, I hope this helps a bit. I hope your attempts with making your own heat pump are successful, and I hope you continue to be part of this conversation... we can use all the help we can get.

Regards,

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Old 02-27-11, 07:01 PM   #608
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AC I certainly have a lot of info to give, it may take me awhile and I will pobably not be very detailed at first...
Wow, your hands-on refrigeration experience is really great, just what we need here.

I think the the 'Great Metering Valve in the Sky' must have sent you to us!

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My first mistake was not even thinking about energy efficiency when we built the house 5 yrs ago.
Indeed! There's that mantra again, "Insulate, Insulate, Insulate."

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Originally Posted by okpiddler View Post
I made four different HX for my home condensing unit before I got it right and put the heat from our house into my inground pool.
This would be a really good topic to expand on and to show pictures or even hand-drawn diagrams if you don't have the photos. I know that being able to build their own heat exchangers would be really very useful for home builders. For one thing Brazed Plate HXs can be expensive, and also there are conditions where BPHX isn't such a good alternative, like if there is an open source situation and fouling could be an issue. The BPHXs have such narrow passage ways that they can get clogged.

So your mistakes would be very useful here, to help folks estimate heat output.

Regards,

-AC_Hacker
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Old 02-27-11, 08:00 PM   #609
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Drake It is all good! You were right, it was off topic! I especially do not mind someone telling me how I should have done something different... I am a whatever it takes to get the job done and right kind of guy!
One thing I want to say real quick. Do not ever put copper in the ground for heat exchange. It does not use enough soil mass. HDPE is the way to go.
Conducting heat too quickly for soil to recover offers no advantage. HDPE is still a better conductor than dirt so having a better conductor pipe like copper will not extract any more heat from the ground.

Last edited by okpiddler; 02-27-11 at 08:30 PM.. Reason: Added info
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Old 02-27-11, 10:13 PM   #610
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The mechanical components and assembly of heat pump and HX's pretty understandable to me but I keep getting lost in all the electronics being discussed. How much of it is needed for HP control and how much is for just data collecting? If it ever warms up here in MN want to get out in my unheated garage shop and learn to braze. I have an uncle that ought to be able to instruct me.

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