Cost to run Sanyo Mini-split ASHP

[Hv23t]

Originally Posted by MN Renovator

That makes sense. Motorhomes and the like aren't very efficient due to their temporary nature for cost savings on their build and the need/desire for more size inside versus insulation and efficient appliances, heating, etc. I've always thought it was crazy that they had 50 amp plugs on many or probably most of them.

Yeah they have no insulation, I had two of they T'd into my 1 50amp plug and they blew the breaker at one point. I think it was in the morning when they were blow drying there hair with the heater going all the lights tv and who knows what else. Then they came in complaining about the lack of electricty.

Hv23t

[S-F]

Originally Posted by Xringer

The Sanyos don't use much power during the summer. It's much easier to cool, than to heat this house.
When it's over 80 and humid outdoors, setting the Sanyos at 24 (75.2F) keeps us very comfy.

We don't use the AC on most days during the summer. Only when it's hot.
During the approximately five months of summer, I'll bet that our Plasma TV and this PC uses more power than we use for cooling.

Are you seriously responding to my preceding post? Did you read it? I'm not talking about money. I'm talking about throwing away energy. I have made very coherent and legitimate responses to some of your posts in the past suggesting you could benefit in many ways including comfort, energy use and expenses by revisiting your building envelope and you have replied with unfocused assertions that everything in your house is great with a mention of your "Sanyos". If everything is so good why do you need heating at all? And why five tons of it to heat a ranch? All of the air sealing done by the MassSave program if free. You don't pay a nickle and it doesn't reflect poorly on your person if you take advantage of it. The other work they would do for you is 75% subsidized by your utility company. You pay into this program monthly so why not take advantage of it? That is unless your house doesn't need it. A house I worked on a while back just reported a 50% reduction in oil usage in the three years since we did their work. Low numbers aren't impressive unless they are REALLY low. At the very least you'd probably still be paying less to heat with line gas and a good boiler. Certainly on cold days.

Meh

[MN Renovator]

He doesn't care about the energy efficiency of his envelope because he feels that he's not going to 'live long enough for the advantages' or however he worded it the last time I said something. Even some removable weather sealing around the attic stairs and a can of spray foam properly placed would do wonders for him with air sealing for under $20 based on what's he's said about humidity swings. He's stuck with the idea of heating an inefficient building moderately efficient heat pumps is the way to go. With a little work on the envelope, his house could have the same comfort with one of his heat pumps instead of running two. Doesn't seem to make a difference to him though even though this work isn't that hard or expensive DIY, with options like you mentioned he doesn't even need to do it himself.

[S-F]

Fold down attic stairs? Might as well just leave the front door open. Properly sealing those up will usually result in a 200-500 CFM 50 reduction. If there is already R 38 up there the effective whole attic R value is below 9.

Pffft! You could have 30" of cellulose up there and it wouldn't really do anything but make money for the cellulose manufacturer.

Sorry to be a negative Nelly everyone. I know I'm not being productive. I'll simply refrain form paying attention to such posts in the future.

[randen]

S-F

Don't be so hard on Xringer, He is doing good work installing his Heat-pumps and enjoying his new found efficiencys. If he was to make his house envelope better your right he could heat the house with one unit.

I have a neighbour here in the Canadian countryside where the wind blows hard and cold. He has watched as I installed geo-thermal in both my home and shop and he had helped install the solar hot water. But yet he complains about how costly his oil is to heat the home as well as his hot water. He had just finished his basement reno's to install his big flat screen in an entertainment room. He had asked the question should I put insulation in the basement walls?? Well yes. but I'm not sure if the extra expense was actually made.

He's has the land to install a ground loop and we both have a friend that has offered to use his back-hoe to install the loop. His cost for that would be the cost of the HDPE tube and some diesel fuel. ( he could empty the remainder of his tank of furnace oil while he switches) His other costs would be the heat-pump itself but we also have a good source there as well.

WE don't understand why he wouldn't make the effort and switch to save a pile of money. When we ask he says "If I put in geo-thermal it would be like trying to heat a convertable (car)" and "I cannot afford the capital expense"
Not to make him look bad but there is two new cars in the driveway. He has a bit of a commute for his work and his wife the same so he and she require dependable transportation.

We all have our priorities and our desires. I enjoy my Corvette the sound of that V-8 and the ride of a sports car. I don't like the cost of fuel and it isn't very good for picking up groceries. I should sell it and buy a familly Prius.

There is a lot of people out there that carry a sizable balance on their creditcards and they know full well its a very bad situation.

Like Xringer we make efforts to become more Eco and sometimes what we should do isn't fun. Sometimes our desires overpower our commonsence.

Maybe Xringer didn't know about the MassSave program. I didn't know you can DIY your own GSHP until I found it here.

But life isn't over yet, In time we can all become better Eco-Renovators. Keep up the good work sharing information and experiences.

Randen

[Xringer]

We've been having pretty typical weather during the last 40 days.. Maybe a bit cooler than normal.
Woburn November Weather 2012 - AccuWeather Forecast for MA 01801

The TED is projecting 537 kWh ($89) for this billing cycle (11 days left).
Comes to less than $3 a day, so I'm very happy with that.
Heating oil is still about $4 a gallon.

We've been keeping the house at 21C (69.8F) all day, except between midnight & 8AM.
When it's down at 20C (68F).

[Xringer]

Just paid that bill and the TED was a little off on it's 537 kWh projection.
Total was 937 kWh (minus 485 June benchmark) is 479 kWh used
for both ASHP heating and hot water heating with the A7.

479 / 28 billing days comes to 17.107 kWh ($2.68) per day. (using $0.1568 per kWh).
With the average outdoor temp at 36.9 °F

WOBURN WEATHER CENTER - WU Station History
High: Low: Average:
Temperature: 59 °F 21 °F 36.9 °F
Dew Point: 58 °F 2 °F 29.8 °F
Humidity: 99% 27% 78%


3.6 °F cooler than the same days in 2011.
High: Low: Average:
Temperature: 68 °F 11 °F 40.5 °F
Dew Point: 63 °F 3 °F 32.3 °F
Humidity: 99% 19% 74%

[Xringer]

I'm posting these numbers, because I want people living in this type
of climate to understand the cost of running Inverter mini-splits
during the coldest months of the winter.

Me, not burning oil, isn't going to add any extra days
or hours to the life time of the planet.
But, I'm saving a lot of money on heat, and other people might
have a similar greedy motive too.
It's for those greedy people that I'm posting this information.

If your primary interest is saving the planet, there are websites for you..
Like News on Global Warming, Science, Green Politics, Green Living

~~~

This year, the average temp for this billing (12/21/12 to 1/22/13) period was 31.6 °F
Last year was about the same at 31 °F

We used more kWh this year. 1256 vs 1250 last year. I assume that's due to the extra power used by the A7 ASHP hot water system installed last summer.

1256 - 458(baseline) = 798 used above a mild June level.

798 / 32 days = 25 kWhs per day usage. @ about 16 cents per kWh is a bit under $4 per day. Or $122.21 paid for heating and hot water cost..

On some really cold days, we use well over 30 kWhs, milder days are less costly.

Edit:
Just called up the kWh on the TED (for Sanyos only) and it's 755 kWh.
It might not be real accurate (sample rate com bug), but that's 43 kWh less than 798..
So, perhaps the TED isn't too far off, and those 43 kWh were used by the A7 hotwater heater.?.

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by Xringer

Me, not burning oil, isn't going to add any extra days
or hours to the life time of the planet.
But, I'm saving a lot of money on heat, and other people might
have a similar greedy motive too.
It's for those greedy people that I'm posting this information.

If your primary interest is saving the planet, there are websites for you..
Like News on Global Warming, Science, Green Politics, Green Living

There's a Fuel Comparison Calculator over at Build It Solar you might be interested in.

You can compare the cost of various heating methods that way.

As I recall, it will also tell you how much CO2 each heating method puts out.

I'd be interested to know how it reports CO2 output for your olf oil burner and for your current ASHP system.

What it doesn't show is the particulate output burden that coal generated electric power produces.

Particularly sensitive are young children, because early heavy exposure to coal particulate can result in a lifetime of respiratory problems.

RFK Jr came to town to talk about water pollution, and I was struck by how much trouble he has at times, speaking... then I found out that he is personally affected by asthma and also:

I have three sons who have asthma. One out of every four black children in America’s cities now has asthma. We know that asthma attacks are triggered primary by bad air, by ozone and particulates and we know that the principle source of those materials in our atmosphere are 1,100 coal burning power plants that are burning coal illegally. It’s been illegal for 17 years. President Clinton’s administration was prosecuting the worst

75 of those plants but that’s an industry that donated $48 million to this president during the 2000 cycle and have given $58 million since.

One of the first things that Bush did when he came into office was to order the Justice Department and EPA to drop all those lawsuits. The top three enforcers at EPA, Sylvia Lowrance, Bruce Buckheit, Eric Schaeffer, all resigned their jobs in protest. These weren’t Democrats, these were people who had served through the Reagan and Bush administrations, the earlier Bush administration.

... so now, I know what drives him on... it is the knowledge of and direct family experience with his own children gasping for air.

But don't worry Xringer, you probably won't be affected, but younger people, people like your grandchildren, will be more susceptible.

I looked for long term air flow maps for the US, and the best I could come up with is a hypothetical map of nuclear fallout if the US came under atomic attack.

But whether it is nuclear attack, or airborne coal particulate pollution, in the long run, it's all West-to-East. Which means that you and your children and their children (your grand children) are all breathing the accumulated particulate stream of almost all US coal fired power plants.

Xringer, aslo for you, here is an air pollution map of the US:

As you can see, the air quality in your area is in the red zone (red zone means the air is not good).

There is a direct correlation between bad air quality and asthma.

So perhaps your could think twice about advising people, who are interested in the environment, to go to some different web site.

Your energy would be much better spent urging your offspring to relocate to an area where the air pollution is not so serious. In fact, you could even take the money you are saving by running your Sanyos, and start a family re-location fund... maybe even back to Texas. But I would avoid Houston, it might be even worse than where you are living.

I mean, if your grandchildren did develop an asthmatic condition, how would your 'greedy motive' see you through the repeating moments of watching them gasping for air and flailing about for their asthma inhaler?

You can choose whether or not to become aware of and take responsibility for the effect you have on the world around you.

But you can't choose not to breathe the air.


Best,

-AC

[jeff5may]

The projects and accomplishments you have chronicled here are useful.